[katarine]

Actually, I oppose shows on principle. Your attempt to mock my "logic" proves my point.

That's fine. Then what you really meant was that all horse shows are evil. On principle. Even FOSH and NWHA.

And that's fine. Just say what you really mean the first time and your readers won't be misinformed.

[Guilherme]

I'm not a fan of rail classes. IMO they reward enhanced artificiality no matter the breed or discipline. Watching horses go 'round and 'round in a circle is almost as exciting as watching paint dry. BUT, that just my view. I certainly don't demand others subscribe to it. I don't expect the government to make it the law of the land.

As for a "black/white" way of viewing the world, I'm reminded that a great, American philosopher, Morticia Addams, once observed "what is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly." Those with hyper rigid moral codes also share the stage with the likes of Pol Pot, Joe Stalin, Il Duce, and Simon Legree.

Or, put another way, what you see often depends on where you stand.

G.

[gogaitedgo]

I'm not a fan of rail classes. IMO they reward enhanced artificiality no matter the breed or discipline. Watching horses go 'round and 'round in a circle is almost as exciting as watching paint dry. BUT, that just my view. I certainly don't demand others subscribe to it. I don't expect the government to make it the law of the land.

As for a "black/white" way of viewing the world, I'm reminded that a great, American philosopher, Morticia Addams, once observed "what is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly." Those with hyper rigid moral codes also share the stage with the likes of Pol Pot, Joe Stalin, Il Duce, and Simon Legree.

Or, put another way, what you see often depends on where you stand.

G.

Nice. So I'm on the same level as commie mass murderers because I happened to notice that EVERY TIME humans start showing and breeding for show, the animals suffer. Life must be confusing for you, not knowing right from wrong and traveling in a gray shaded fog all the time.

[katarine]

That's coocoo.When I got my own TWH dialed in tight to prepare for walk/canter departures, only then did I discover his right stifle was tight and weak compared to his left. We treated him and worked with it, and evened him out. Had I not been working him and preparing him to show, I might have injured him or fussed at him for being 'uncooperative' about his left lead.

I noticed that every time we get a warm day in February, some people ride their fat, out of shape trail horses 20 miles in a day then throw them back out in the pasture for three more weeks of winter. Does that mean all trail horses are similarly mismanaged?

[Shansurri]

There are abuses in all equine environments. I see abuse on the trails, at shows, and yes... at people's private barns. Of the three I listed, there is one place where people NOTICE the abuse, and that is at a show. Much better, IMO, for abuse to show up at a show where it can be officially decried and specifically ruled against, than to let it quietly build on trails and in the barns of people with no one around to take them to task.

Can show rings perpetuate abusive practices? Of course. But they don't HAVE to. There are plenty of breed organizations that manage to showcase their animals without hurting them.

[Shansurri]

There are abuses in all equine environments. I see abuse on the trails, at shows, and yes... at people's private barns. Of the three I listed, there is one place where people NOTICE the abuse, and that is at a show. Much better, IMO, for abuse to show up at a show where it can be officially decried and specifically ruled against, than to let it quietly build on trails and in the barns of people with no one around to take them to task.

Can show rings perpetuate abusive practices? Of course. But they don't HAVE to. There are plenty of breed organizations that manage to showcase their animals without hurting them.

[Thoro]

^^^This.
I recently left a barn where the supposed 'trainer' wouldn't hesitate to PUNCH a horse in the head if it didn't stand still ( trust me, it didn't help) This person would take one of the horses to maybe 2 small, local shows a year and didn't take the other one to any shows, she mostly trail rode, and didn't ride that much really.

Despite the fact she hardly showed 'her' horses she still treated them like crap.

Some people abuse their horses even if they don't show, yes, showing may provide a bit of an incentive, but I've seen it happen with trailriders, pleasure riders, pasture puffs, heck, I've seen little kids beating on their school ponies!

[sunridge1]

IMO when the "show" takes the place of ethics in the breed standard. There is a huge problem. That is the end result of a breed specific rail class.

[FortheTWH]

It was a disappointment to me that Hannah was in the video to support the stacked horse venue and Inman's comments. I had her in the same ball park as Nate -which is in the same show ring but none the less non-supportive of the stacked horse.

It is a valid place to be IMO.

I'm just wondering, and I'm not trying to bash you on this, sunridge, I'm serious. I'm curious to know why you think this.

To explain where I come from, I see it is they go to these shows and they give money to be in the classes, and many times because of who they are they aren't even awarded a ribbon (I'm sure this is probably the case with the Jacksons). So they've just given away their time and money to show with people who are just going to go home and sore more horses. I don't really see that as a good place to be. I'd rather see people like them support sound horse shows rather than fraternize with the enemy. We all know that money is what keeps them going--why continue to give it to them? When the money dries up, the soring will stop. (Hence Mike Inman's whining on the video.)

The enemy doesn't like a sound, natural horse--they WANT the artificial gait and enjoy watching it. A horse that isn't sored usually isn't "doing enough" to them. So it's nothing but a losing situation for sound horse people.

So, I just wanted to know the logic behind why you think this is an okay place to be. That's all--just want to learn others' opinions!

Oh, and I agree that Hannah is not a "natural" trainer. Otherwise she wouldn't use so many gadgets. She also needs to SIT UP for crying out loud--drives me nuts that she can't sit a horse properly.

[FortheTWH]

I did not like that someone here for less than 60 days themselves telling someone else that they were basically not welcomed here., or they should not express themselves in the way that they had and degrading them by being what I saw as disrespectful.

You know, because someone who has been posting on COTH for less than 60 days MUST not know anything, never mind that that someone has over 12 years in this fight.

I see what you're doing, Nate. Putting down others to make yourself look better. Please, for the love of God, LEAVE ME ALONE.

[FortheTWH]

I do not know about the TWH however. The stack does seem to impact however the issue is SORING....Question: IF a TWH was put into stacks and NOT sored..no chains etc..would he/she still be able to move in that extreme manner?

Actually, they might have the same lift, but they would NOT be crouching and marching behind like they do now. They would be driving up underneath themselves, not marching and fighting to get away from the pain. (This information comes from discussions with people who used to sore horses.)

[FortheTWH]

It turns out this invitation only meeting by the TWHBEA is not going to happen. People complained so they canceled the meeting.

[sunridge1]

I think you may have meant to quote me not hurley? If you are addressing me, the specialization of most every breed has reached critical proportions IMO. They are breeding for a specific phenotype that largely doesn't exist except for a few freaks. All the while forgetting about the rest of the animal. A trend is established and before you know it, the gene pool is corrupt with single copy carriers of a mutation that really IS bad and that may never be eradicated. That is worst case scenario. Or you just plain breed out the genetics that made them what they once were to begin with. I see this across many different breeds in this country.

[gogaitedgo]

There are abuses in all equine environments. I see abuse on the trails, at shows, and yes... at people's private barns. Of the three I listed, there is one place where people NOTICE the abuse, and that is at a show. Much better, IMO, for abuse to show up at a show where it can be officially decried and specifically ruled against, than to let it quietly build on trails and in the barns of people with no one around to take them to task.

Can show rings perpetuate abusive practices? Of course. But they don't HAVE to. There are plenty of breed organizations that manage to showcase their animals without hurting them.

Can you name one?

[FortheTWH]

I'm not a fan of rail classes. IMO they reward enhanced artificiality no matter the breed or discipline.

I've gotten to where I don't like rail classes for this exact reason, Guilherme.

[CFFarm]

I've gotten to where I don't like rail classes for this exact reason, Guilherme.

Add me in once you get past lead line. I'm afraid it's the human factor. I mean they just passed a rule that dogs showing at Westminster can't have plastic surgery for goodness sake.

[Guilherme]

Can you name one?

Rollkur?

G.

[hurleycane]

Hey - I think the discussion is falling off into a tangent of no return.

Think about it and answer me this - what endeavor have humans EVER been involved in where there is not some "evil" "cheating" "accusations" "malcontents" etc etc? Specially where there is judging.

Zip. Zero. Nada. None.

So it is a moot point, no?

Our only saving grace in any worthwhile endeavor is the ability to critique and reexamine the world we live in and the purpose we feel we serve best.

So I think when it comes to horsemanship through the ages and as it affects the shown horse, folks on this thread should be able to consider the big picture. ANd for me - boring as a roundy round may be for some - I sure had a blast when I was very active in the roundy round ASB shows. And so did the horses.

Get your blinkers off! There really is a lot of good going on at roundy rounds and both in the preparation for them and at the actual events.

[gogaitedgo]

Rollkur?

G.

They banned rollkur? How long did that take? Are they enforcing it? And the fact that it existed proves my point yet again.

[gogaitedgo]

Hey - I think the discussion is falling off into a tangent of no return.

Think about it and answer me this - what endeavor have humans EVER been involved in where there is not some "evil" "cheating" "accusations" "malcontents" etc etc? Specially where there is judging.

Zip. Zero. Nada. None.

So it is a moot point, no?

Our only saving grace in any worthwhile endeavor is the ability to critique and reexamine the world we live in and the purpose we feel we serve best.

So I think when it comes to horsemanship through the ages and as it affects the shown horse, folks on this thread should be able to consider the big picture. ANd for me - boring as a roundy round may be for some - I sure had a blast when I was very active in the roundy round ASB shows. And so did the horses.

Get your blinkers off! There really is a lot of good going on at roundy rounds and both in the preparation for them and at the actual events.

When animals are being tortured so people can go roundy round, it is NOT a moot point. I'm not the one with blinkers on.