[katarine]

Look at the way you questioned me, and figure out if there's any way at all it was respectful or fair. any time I see ????? I read "Oh BS, heifer, you are blowing smoke" it certainly does not convey "OMG, really, that's terrible, tell me more"

The dates and location are plainly stated. But you were flying through and taking notes on what you considered weak points, rather than reading and absorbing.

You know me. You know that I know horses and am hairtip deep in riding TWHs and appreciating them for what they should be. You were rude, girl. I know what rude looks like.

[hurleycane]

Sorry - I do not see this glaring interrogation light bulb swinging above your head. I am sure not waving one. I thought you answered me pretty nicely and directly - had no clue you were at all upset. And I had no reason to expect you to be upset. But since you were upset - I did go back and look at the way I "questioned" you - and mind you I looked at it from my stand point and not yours.

So rude or not - this is how the questions came up in my post. My stand point (mantra) on this issue is that soring will be better controlled when action devices (and all that it encompasses) are eliminated from the show ring. My rationale is that IF a horse is actually "sore" at the time of DQP it will be easy to detect (you kinda proved that point in your explanation when you described the sore horse). That flatshod horse was sore. And you, by your own statement a novice to this soring crap knew something was sick and wrong about the horse at the time you found it sullied up.

And then you say it passed DQP and showed.

????????? said I and I posted my questions pretty much right there. Not questioning what you saw (ie not calling you a liar) - more just questioning that it was sored at a show and it passed DQP.

So I wanted to clarify the what when etc etc. and don't think I read the end of your post.

You follow me now? The ????? was not in disbelief OF you. It was in disbelief that 1)the horse was being sored AT a show(they had wraps to cook) 2) that a DQP passed the horse. How did that horse pass??????

Your Shelbyville location answers the question - and leads to another - I know the horse was spotted - was it a SSH show?

Don't blame you for being made to feel unsafe. Though it was long ago - it was very sickening for me to witness and scary as hell to be there with the soring bastards.


Now - I think this not need be the Hurleycane/Katarine show no mo.

My apologies for the waddy.

[FortheTWH]

JUst want to add again - we need a "trot out or a pace out" as part of a DQP exam. Currently they just mosey around cones. Get them up into suspension and soring will show.

And it might keep the "off" ones out of the ring.

Not a bad idea.

I do agree. the problem is they'd never agree to it. These horses are four-legged lame, so they're going to look even no matter what. That's how they sore them, especially when pressure shoeing--they have to be even on both sides. Plus, most of the BL horses are bred to pace so they can "square up" when they sore and stack them. An actual "gait out" (to coin a phrase - LOL) would separate the boys from the men--we'd see who's really got a natural gait and who doesn't. Most of them don't anymore.

I once said to a friend who used to sore horses wouldn't it be something if they had TWH liberty classes? I was being sarcastic. She was like yeah, right--no horse would win because none of them can perform a true gait. We both had a good laugh at that.

[FortheTWH]

Andrea - I am glad you are here. You sure are a great resource! And a good advocate.

Thanks so much, hurleycane!

[FortheTWH]

CONCERNING ENDURANCE...

I'm not sure if this was covered or not, or if anyone really needed an answer. TWHs and various gaited horses are used for endurance all the time. It used to be that people had to really explain to vets why their horse was "bobbing his head" while in the trot out. Now vets are doing a great job of educating themselves and learning that gaited horses move differently, so you don't look for lameness issues the same way as is done with traditional breeds.

Sorry if I've answered and already answered question.

[hurleycane]

WITW - Gotta ask: DO you think we should discuss more the specifics of soring? I think it really does need to be more understood to make the point clearer about why action devices need to be eliminated as outlined in HR6388.

Like the comment about the chain and cooking only for certain divisions. From the folks I know who know this stuff, just about anything you can do to get the horse sore in both fronts will give a gaiter the founder crawl. Like the guy I watched kick the bay on the coronet.

I think it would also be good to discuss how DQP can be enhanced without great cost to the show or exhibitor to better detect the sored and stewarded horse.

Like walking the cones - if G would like to answer, I am curious as to what the assessment guidelines are for the DQP on that? Are they looking for a misstep? Stumble? If so - how is that different from a trot out?

And mind you I am not grilling - just furthering the discussion and HR6388 cause.

[hurleycane]

LOL the "head bob" post Andrea. And the "gait out."


But they are out there: good trainers and good walking horses.

[WalkInTheWoods]

The Kentucky After Christmas sale:

http://www.kentucky.com/2013/01/25/2...#storylink=cpy

Here is a link to some pics.

http://www.kentucky.com/2013/01/25/2...orylink=relast

This sale when held at Tattersalls through the years was a showcase for the padded horse. You would see a lot of padded champions,broodmares and a just a few flatshod horses up for bid. Huge crowds and a lot of money being spent. The times are changing. This sale had no padded, a small crowd of buyers and the prices were way down.

[spookhorse]

I've attended the KY After Christmas Sale several times in the past 8 years since I've lived pretty close to Tattersall's, and I have to say, the best prices I've seen on ANY horse going through that sale in any year that I've gone has been for flat/keg shod SOUND trail horses. I think that it probably sales probably weren't any worse than any other year.

I have seen an unregistered, well-gaited, 13hh PONY sell for more at this sale than the padded horses or WGC bred broodmares (bred back to WGCs) would bring (we're talking thousands the unreg. pony brought). The broodies would bring maybe $400... Padded horses are going out the door cheap and have been for the last few years, there's just this one group of people hanging onto them. You can't hardly give away the padded horses IMHO.

[WalkInTheWoods]

I feel real bad that horses have had to endure the performance "training" lifestyle and now their worth has been downgraded. They lived it for what ? Hope the ex-BL horses transition well to flatshod and have enough gait to make them valuable to trail riders and other non-BL owners.

[spookhorse]

I have one I'm pretty fond of, but his personality is what makes him Looks-wise, he's not real pretty, and he's none too smart LOL His gait is pacey, but he's getting better with years of work.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Now wait a minute. His gait needs work, he is not pretty yet you are very fond of him. You say he is not smart ?? I think he has your number ! LOL

[spookhorse]

He's just a big adorable mug LOL Got a head shaped like a hammer and can't find his stall to save his life (the mares have no problem with this).

[WalkInTheWoods]

Pretty goes only so far. I too will take a good temperament any day. But cant find his stall at feed time ? Thats a high score on the doofus meter !

[WalkInTheWoods]

Hurleycane - as the number of BL owners and trainers dwindles they may turn to owning and training flatshod. They will bring their "knowledge" to a new discipline. I hope the new amendment will head them off at the pass and we do not have to go through this again in a few years.

[hurleycane]

Yes. And they already are doing and have been doing this.

The article was good.

Love the description of Shannon's good boy. Warmed my heart as I am sure it does hers. Sounds like quite a character.

[spookhorse]

Yeah, Buddy's a character He's one of those "dangerous" Big Lick horses they talk about... can't you see the vicious in him??? (and yes, his head really is that big LOL)

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot..._8089792_n.jpg

I recently got him back after having given him away a few years ago. We had a contract for him to come back to me if the new gal decided she didn't want him but the new gal traded him instead. Turns out she traded him to an old friend of mine and I saw him on old friend's FB page. Found out he'd been traded for a TB mare, old friend didn't know about the agreement I'd had for him to come back. Old friend and I decided he was fine where he was, so he stayed with her, then bad divorce happened and ex-husband was threatening the horses so Buddy came back to me in October.

He won't leave again unless it is a free lease to a close friend of mine who loves him, or a possible lending to the KHP is sorta being talked about.

I know I've shared before, but here are the pics of Buddy's hoof rehab. When I purchased him in 2006, he's been pulled off the stacks and his hooves had no rehabilitative trimming to bring them back from normal. He sat in a field for several months like this. What his hooves are shaped like in the first seven photos is pretty standard (with some additional growth showing from the lack of care) of what a Big Lick horse's hooves look like when not on the stacks. There is extreme long toe/low heel encouraged in order to fit on the pads.

http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n...ddys%20Hooves/

The last seven photos are Buddy's hooves after 5 months of 3 week interval rehabilitative trimming.

I've also mentioned before, but I know it tends to get lost in the shuffle of many posts- there is no upper weight limit on the stacks, except on yearlings. Instead they use measurements on how big the pads can be based upon hoof length, so can you see why they grow the hoof out so far and cut the heels back?

(From WHOA Rulebook)

12. Heel/Toe Measurement. Toe length must exceed the height of the heel by one inch or more. The length of the toe shall be measured from the coronet band (where hard and soft material meet), at the center of the front pastern along the front of the hoof wall to the ground. The heel shall be measured from the coronet band, at the most lateral portion of the rear pastern, at a 90 degree angle to the ground, not including normal caulks at the rear of the horseshoe that do not exceed ¾ inch in length. That portion of caulk at the rear of horseshoe in excess of ¾ inch shall be added to the height of the heel in determining the heel-to-toe ratio.


13. Pads. Pads shall be ½ inch minimum and made of leather, plastic or a similar pliant material.


14. Pad Measurement. The amount of pad, or artificial extension, permitted on any horse two (2) years of age or older will be determined by the natural hoof length. The amount of artificial extension, whether accomplished with pads, acrylics or any other material or combination thereof, must not exceed 50 percent of the natural hoof length. The natural hoof length is measured from the coronet band at the center of the front pastern along the front of the hoof wall, to the distal portion of the hoof wall at the tip of the toe. The thickness of the pad, or artificial extension, shall be measured from the distal portion of the hoof wall at the tip of the toe at a 90 degree angle to the proximal (foot/hoof) surface of the shoe.

[hurleycane]

Yeah, Buddy's a character He's one of those "dangerous" Big Lick horses they talk about... can't you see the vicious in him??? (and yes, his head really is that big LOL)

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot..._8089792_n.jpg

....

I've also mentioned before, but I know it tends to get lost in the shuffle of many posts- there is no upper weight limit on the stacks, except on yearlings. Instead they use measurements on how big the pads can be based upon hoof length, so can you see why they grow the hoof out so far and cut the heels back?

(From WHOA Rulebook)

12. Heel/Toe Measurement. Toe length must exceed the height of the heel by one inch or more. The length of the toe shall be measured from the coronet band (where hard and soft material meet), at the center of the front pastern along the front of the hoof wall to the ground. The heel shall be measured from the coronet band, at the most lateral portion of the rear pastern, at a 90 degree angle to the ground, not including normal caulks at the rear of the horseshoe that do not exceed ¾ inch in length. That portion of caulk at the rear of horseshoe in excess of ¾ inch shall be added to the height of the heel in determining the heel-to-toe ratio.


13. Pads. Pads shall be ½ inch minimum and made of leather, plastic or a similar pliant material.


14. Pad Measurement. The amount of pad, or artificial extension, permitted on any horse two (2) years of age or older will be determined by the natural hoof length. The amount of artificial extension, whether accomplished with pads, acrylics or any other material or combination thereof, must not exceed 50 percent of the natural hoof length. The natural hoof length is measured from the coronet band at the center of the front pastern along the front of the hoof wall, to the distal portion of the hoof wall at the tip of the toe. The thickness of the pad, or artificial extension, shall be measured from the distal portion of the hoof wall at the tip of the toe at a 90 degree angle to the proximal (foot/hoof) surface of the shoe.

He is all that you said and more... I mean I thought my horse had a big head (unregistered) - Buddy's head is honking big and handsome. Seems to me the only thing dangerous about him is the people who came up with the shoeing protocol.

God, it sucks for the horses. I am sure the protocol IS compliant with HPA. Sad sad sad. I sure hope folks are paying attention to all that you posted and consider it in context of what HR6388 sets out to accomplish. I mean think about it - this federally blessed protocol is a BIG issue and an abuse. If HR6388 adopts USEF oversight on TWH show rules, I am sure such extreme shoeing allowances will be history.

Your Buddy and all the Buddys out there deserve better.

It should not be legal husbandry to do such a thing - and yet it is.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Poor boy. His hooves in the first pics are awful. Guess those "farriers" dont have breakover in their vocabulary. Glad you were able to help him get a good foot back under him.

[rmh_rider]

Any place we can look at the results of the auction?

I looked and could find anything on what the horses sold for.

Anyway to find out how many twh were registered last year?

Are they numbers up or down or the same for registrations?

TWH specifically that is.