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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb. 20, 2011
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    Dutchess county, NY
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    Default Pricing question

    Horse for sale in 60k - 80k range. Confirmed PSG gelding, early teens, very very safe. Sells with complete vet records.

    Horse had problems with vetting. Clean xrays but positive flexions on both hocks and both stiffles. Horse had joint injections and now 2 weeks latter flexes clean. (2 years prior, horse had Right stiffle and both front cannon joints injected - no other history of sports medicine issues). Horse has had no routine maintenance

    Vet recommends evaluations every 6 months, possible injections every 6 months and monthly polyglycan or legend injections. To be fair, vet thinks this is a horse that is sounder than expected.

    So now that the horse will need some maintenance, how much should the asking price change?
    Last edited by dudleyc; May. 16, 2012 at 02:47 PM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 12, 2004
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    Massachusetts
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    Default

    For a schoolmaster gelding who is otherwise sound with excellent x-rays, but who needs a little (what most people would consider absolutely normal) maintenance?

    I don't think it would change very much at all, sorry.



  3. #3
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    Oct. 21, 2003
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    Default

    I only know of two people that have bought confirmed FEI level horses, both "passed" vettings with minor maintenance findings like this one. One GP horse imported but bought here in the states, one bought in Germany. Both were around 50k and almost immediately many more issues came out, and neck arthritis in conjunction to all the other wear and tear did them in not long after they were bought.

    I'd hope whatever you spend you can afford to throw away, and you are prepared for a short amount of time with them competing or serviceably sound.

    Buyer beware. I always wonder why these horses are for sale in their teens. I figure the owners want the $$ while they think they can get it and don't want to deal with what comes next.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2000
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    Proud owner of one Lunar acre! (Campanus Crater, The Moon)
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    Buyer beware. I always wonder why these horses are for sale in their teens.
    In their early teens? They should be in their prime! That's why they're for sale.
    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 30, 2011
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    Default

    Maybe get a second opinion...or third, and get a really good insurance company. These prices always floor me, but it is all relative. Make sure that an insurance company will insure this horse fully for whatever the final price is.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar. 20, 2009
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    Default

    Confirmed PSG horse, safe and a good dressage mover (I'm assuming). Here you are paying for training. There is nothing more valuable than the lessons a good schoolmaster can give you. The "issues" sound like normal maintenance to me. All-in-all, I can't figure out why some people would dismiss the years of training it took to get a nice horse to this level and to solidify the training. Yes, the horse "could" go lame or have a million other things go wrong. This is true of all horses, all ages. If a person can't afford to lose ANY horse they buy...then purchase should be questioned.
    I bought an expensive schoolmaster who had a club foot. She was working well at her level with no problems, so I took the risk. She never had problems with that foot...though she "failed" the pre-purchase. She did, to my extreme grief, die of colic 3 years later. I still think she was a good purchase and I bless the day I bought her. That horse taught me so very, very much....lessons no human instructor would ever be able to articulate, explain or even see. So many lessons of dressage are "secrets" between the horse and rider. So, yes. Most schoolmasters have an issue or two. No reason to pass them by if the issues are reasonable.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    May. 14, 2004
    Location
    NW CT
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    Default

    Most buyers are prepared for routine maintenance on a horse of that age (and younger). It's a little hard to answer your question, because the 60K-80K range is a pretty big range (I understand why you want to present it that way, but it's still a pretty big range).

    I'd say that more reasonable pricing is closer to the low end...but pricing will also depend on age, a show record, temperament, size and attractiveness, in addition to how long the horse has been on the market, and how exposed. Reducing the price usually signals the desire for a "quick sale" or that something came up in a PPE (as it did).

    As an alternative, if you want to lower the price, you could simply add the word "negotiable," which is less of a red flag or a "Welcome Home" sign to bargain hunters than reducing the price outright.
    The aids are the legs, the hands, the weight of the rider, the whip, the caress, the voice and the use of extraneous circumstances. ~ General Decarpentry
    www.reflectionsonriding.com



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 12, 2007
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    CT
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    Default

    Most horses of that age and training level need some maintenance. The unknown in this case is how long the maintenance will work for.

    I generally would not expect the price to drop, but I would expect that the owners would be a bit more negotiable than they otherwise were.



  9. #9
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    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Chandler, AZ, USA
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    Default

    Front cannon bones injected? Never heard of that, why?
    AZ TD



  10. #10
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    Feb. 20, 2011
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    Dutchess county, NY
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    Default

    To be clear I am the owner/seller. I am looking for a good home and will sell him with right of first refusal.

    The add presently advertises "no maintenance". I need to delete that or change it.

    Would that lower the asking price? If so by 10k? 15k?

    TIA



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun. 30, 2011
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    Default

    That makes sense now....Just delete that part. A buyer will have the horse vetted and you can take it from there. It comes down to what you can live with and what a buyer is willing to pay and what kind of home they can provide for him. Good luck! I bet he's a really great horse!



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct. 13, 2006
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    3,505

    Default

    Well in my experience the horses price did not change as the horse was able to perform the job required and that was not likely to change per this vet exam.

    I had a horse fail one vet exam and then pass the second and in between we did not negotiate her price even though the first one was so negative.

    Further examination showed the horse was fine... I wouldn't have changed her price for maintanance either.

    If the horse can perform and compete currently and that is not likely to immediately change I dont see any reason why a price should change.
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  13. #13
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    Nov. 8, 2006
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    Default

    Today, hocks are standard maintnance for a show horse with lots of mileage. While there are some horses that don't need them they are the exception not the rule. Therefore, hock injections that allow the horse to pass flexions (that is impressive regardless) does not change the price. You can tell the potential buyers when he was last injected and they can go from there. If the xrays are clean and the horse is competing without difficulty, then that is what makes the price. That said, stifle injections will scare some people a bit more. If I were you I would be getting the most experienced farrier working on him as possible!

    Good luck

    PS, I think you were meaning coffin bone injections.



  14. #14
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    May. 25, 2005
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    best place so far
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    I only know of two people that have bought confirmed FEI level horses, both "passed" vettings with minor maintenance findings like this one. One GP horse imported but bought here in the states, one bought in Germany. Both were around 50k and almost immediately many more issues came out, and neck arthritis in conjunction to all the other wear and tear did them in not long after they were bought.

    I'd hope whatever you spend you can afford to throw away, and you are prepared for a short amount of time with them competing or serviceably sound.

    Buyer beware. I always wonder why these horses are for sale in their teens. I figure the owners want the $$ while they think they can get it and don't want to deal with what comes next.
    An n=2 does not make for real evidence that just because a horse is found to need minor maintenance that they will end up with neck arthritis. There are thousands of horses that need routine hock/stifle injections and perform well into their late teens-early twenties. This would not be a factor for me to negotiate price.

    Also, over the last years I think our mindset has changed with how we manage our sport horses. Before it was 1)problem, then 2) try to fix the problem. Now it is more about preventative maintenance to hopefully never cross the bridge of a major problem. Therefore, I think most folks see hock injections, adequan, legend, pentosan, etc. as routine these days...especially for a PSG horse. In our barn we have 5 FEI level and 4 2nd-4th level horses that have had "routine maintenance" since the beginning of their riding careers. Knock on wood all have been sound, and at least half of those horses are well into their teens.

    I too think what you are paying for is training and competitive ability of the horse. If it is a sane AA ready horse and can be competitive at shows (score at least mid-60s) that is where the real value is. Early teens is what I would expect the age of most horses to be if I was looking for a PSG or above mount.

    Good luck with getting him placed in the right home!!



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec. 16, 2003
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    Staunton, VA, USA
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    Default Early teens is not that old

    just add the word negotiable to the price. and delete the no maintenance.
    You could try about 10k lower but personally I wouldn't.

    The negotiable should be enough.

    Good Luck
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
    Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
    New edition of book is out:
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    www.knabstruppers4usa.com



  16. #16
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    Oct. 21, 2003
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluehof View Post
    An n=2 does not make for real evidence that just because a horse is found to need minor maintenance that they will end up with neck arthritis. There are thousands of horses that need routine hock/stifle injections and perform well into their late teens-early twenties. This would not be a factor for me to negotiate price.
    These 2 are only the two in my immediate barn. I have found recently that a horse that has gone FEI that is in their teens is more often than not very close to the end of their career. I cannot even think of a single one that I think would be sound enough to warrant a price tag like that. Unless of course you truly have so much money that 60-80k is pocket change.

    I always see these ads for 15 year old horses for these prices and cannot believe it, since the person that buys a horse at that age is probably going to have to pay for it's retirement sooner than later. But I don't have that kind of money lying around burning a hole in my pocket, some people do!



  17. #17

    Default

    When you say Cannon joints, do you mean at the knee or at the fetlock? I too find this terminology confusing.

    While most people do expect to do a bit of maintenance, i would be really leery of a horse that has had trouble in the hocks, stifles and knees or fetlocks ( whichever it is).

    at that price range i would expect to look a little further and find a sounder horse with similar training. ( of course if this horse is remarkably skilled at its training level, then it might outweigh the negatives).

    I too expect a horse in the young teens to be still in the prime of its life, both in soundness and in mind and build.



  18. #18
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    Mar. 25, 2012
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    90

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chisamba View Post
    When you say Cannon joints, do you mean at the knee or at the fetlock? I too find this terminology confusing.

    While most people do expect to do a bit of maintenance, i would be really leery of a horse that has had trouble in the hocks, stifles and knees or fetlocks ( whichever it is).

    at that price range i would expect to look a little further and find a sounder horse with similar training. ( of course if this horse is remarkably skilled at its training level, then it might outweigh the negatives).

    I too expect a horse in the young teens to be still in the prime of its life, both in soundness and in mind and build.
    When is the last time you had flexions and xrays done on your horses, Chisamba? Did they all flex negative? How about the rest of you?



  19. #19

    Default

    I have had and still have several horses in my barn that are showing well into their 20's. We retired one last year at 24 but he's still gives lessons to a couple of amateurs. All of the older ones are requiring maintenance of some sort -although we don't just inject the younger ones prolifically at this point.

    A 'teen' is still in their prime and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one that has had some maintenance. The only thing I won't touch is a old suspensory injury - but that's jmo. It seems every year after the age of 12 the value of the horse goes down.

    An amateur friendly PSG - I-1 horse in his teens is still super valuable since the person is basically buying their 'education' or ability to go straight in and show FEI. The better the horse's recorded scores, etc., the higher the price. An older schoolmaster scoring in the 70's for example will fetch $60 - $100K for sure. A good horse will always sell. They are hard to come by.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2010
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    Alberta
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    Default

    How badly did horse flex? Does the horse show any secondary lameness issues such as back soreness?

    Stifles would worry me as a buyer more than the hocks, but at the same time it is hard to just flex the stifles, so is the vet sure the stifles were positive, or is it that the hocks/stifles were flexed at the same time, and one of the two (or both) showed positive flexions?

    But...if someone vetted the horse now, it would pass right? I guess as a buyer, I would appreciate your honesty. At the same time I would want to know that the injections do last for more than a couple weeks. If the horse stays happy/sound, with no secondary soreness, I would not expect the price to be dropped based on this.

    (when shopping in the low 4 figures, if I find a horse needs maintenance, we usually negotiate down by the cost of the maintenance for 2 years...but this seems like such a small amount compared to your asking amout, so seems petty/pointless)



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