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  1. #101
    Coreene is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    I think we were simultaneously fuming.
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  2. #102
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    to a certain older brother too much. But you really can't expect him to do less than toe the party line. I love Mark to death, but coreene, you were spot on on your comments.

    Laurie
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  3. #103
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    Yup, I'm here to say if my sister was to spit out some useless drivel that was so completely missing the point, I'd be right there calling her a genius. Not to her face of course [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] But to others, sure thing!

    All the same, great replies one and all!
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  4. #104
    Dealer Guest

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    Isn't it about time we forget AHSA (or USA Equestrian) vs, USET???

    How about a reality check on the tragedy that occurred in New York at the World Trade Center.

    Hooray for Americans everywhere who stood up to be counted.

    Any other discussion on this issue is petty.



  5. #105
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    There was a flight available to go, and in fact it did go not at the time it was slotted for but it did go..I think people need to stop attacking everybody concerned, and accept the USETs and riders choice of not going for safety reasons, an American Team of any sought at that time on a charter could be a target .....



  6. #106
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dealer:

    Hooray for Americans everywhere who stood up to be counted.

    Any other discussion on this issue is petty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Dealer, yes indeed, hooray for the three American riders in Madrid, you will get no argument about that from most here--and those who disagree are of course welcome to say so.

    "Other discussion" began when George Morris, Armand Leone, and some riders strongly criticized both those who participated in the Nation's Cup, and USA Eq for enabling their participation.
    Tinwhistle Farm



  7. #107
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KLG:
    There was a flight available to go, and in fact it did go not at the time it was slotted for but it did go..I think people need to stop attacking everybody concerned, and accept the USETs and riders choice of not going for safety reasons, an American Team of any sought at that time on a charter could be a target .....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That is so, and I believe that the USET, owners and riders made what they felt was the best decision for the team at Gladstone at that time.

    I'm not sure that people don't accept that--I think they reacting to the comments made about the team that was assembled in Europe by USA Eq, and, re-examining the stated reasons for the decision in light of remarks by Morris, Leone, etc.
    Tinwhistle Farm



  8. #108
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    it would be difficult in the extreme for hijackers to board a chartered equine flight. The only persons allowed on are the shipping company's reps, usually 3-4, including the pilot, and those directly involved with the horses: their grooms, riders, vets. Any "strange" faces would immediately be noticed. There probably aren't 20 people on a chartered USET flight.

    Laurie
    Laurie
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    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  9. #109
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    KLG, if the USET had stuck to saying the reasons they didn't send a team were the lack of flights and/or the safety concerns, I doubt anyone would have argued with them.

    It was their comments that the decision not to send a team was out of patriotism and respect that got people hot under the saddle (including me). Those comments made it seem that the riders who did participate, and USA Eq for arranging to send them, were being unpatriotic or disrespectful, when the exact opposite was true in most people's opinions (including mine).

    Moreover, the fact that some of the riders who had been scheduled to go to Madrid and others making those comments (including Mark Leone and Jimmy Torano) competed only 2 or 3 days after the tragedy in the Gold Cup made the "not competing out of patriotism and respect" comments ring very, very hollow and really hacked off some people (including me).

    Dealer, I think I understand your feelings, and since you are new here, you may not have seen them, but if you go back and read the forums beginning on the morning of September 11, I think you will find there has been a great deal of concern, respect, and prayer, shown here for the victims of the attack, the rescue workers, and their loved ones.

    Yes, the dispute between the USET and USA Eq is petty in comparison, and I think most people clearly recognize that. Still, it is part of the future of our sport in this country, and -- since we are fortunate and blessed to still have that future -- we shouldn't ignore it, IMHO.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  10. #110
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    How many of you would have put your best horse (or any for that matter) on a plane days after the attack? I would not have, nor would I have put my employees or myself in an airplane.

    I do agree this whole fiasco was poorly "spun" by USET. GHM's remarks only added fuel to the fire. USET is lacking in the gift of gab department. However, Mark Leone raises some interesting issues which are being overlooked in the heat of the discussion.

    IMHO USAE would have come out of this the "bigger man" had they stood united with USET on their decision to withdraw. Regardless of what the FEI and Samsung wanted. (Were the Americans invited before or after the Irish and the Swedes declined?) Instead, USAE chose to play the emotional/political card, further dividing the factions.

    Second, since this is USAE's first "real" foray into the world of fielding International Teams, is this what we should expect from them in the future? Yes, the circumstances were unique but...I'm not impressed with their lack of attention to detail. Should we have sent a Team, under any circumstance without a fourth member and lacking a non-riding chef to an International Championship?



  11. #111
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Emmet:
    How many of you would have put your best horse (or any for that matter) on a plane days after the attack? I would not have, nor would I have put my employees or myself in an airplane.

    I do agree this whole fiasco was poorly "spun" by USET. GHM's remarks only added fuel to the fire. USET is lacking in the gift of gab department. However, Mark Leone raises some interesting issues which are being overlooked in the heat of the discussion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Emmet, I don't think anyone is saying they disagree with the contingency that was here in the U.S. remaining in the U.S. I sure wouldn't have put MY horse on a plane, even continental in nature. However, it appears to me that they were PLANNING on shipping these horses until the last moment, THEN used the excuse of patriotism, etc. for their reason for NOT going. THEN, some who made these "supportive" comments for the USET showed DAYS later on U.S. soil.

    I don't think there was any lack of gift of gab or poor spin, as you say, by the USET. What it was was idiotic aspersions on our riders who did compete. It also smacked of toddler-like whining to me. I read Mark's post and I agree that it would have been nice for the USET and USAE to have communicated more (and maybe they DID) during this event (in order to present a "united front"), but even Mark said that the USET dropped the ball on this one!!! I certainly do not blame AB or USAE for answering the call. I also do not think our three-person team was "inferior" in any way to whatever team we would have sent. It's unfortunate that we didn't have a "drop" score, but this team still did better that other USA teams that did in previous competitions.

    I also resent some posters saying that this team had no chance and that is the reason why they shouldn't have competed. For heaven's sake! Look at the results!!! How can ANYONE say this team didn't have a chance???? I'm sure THEY thought they had a chance. I'm sure THEY didn't go there to "lose". But, I'm also sure they DID go there to give it their best shot, to compete as best they could, and to honor our United States of America by competing and by being there.

    Ok, done ranting for right now...Onward to the another issue brought up: SPONSORS It seems to me that everyone on this board who has spoken on this issue is of the belief that the equestrian sports need to do MORE for sponsors in order to encourage more sponsors. DUH... To say that this should NOT have been a consideration, imo, is not a supportive thought.

    Oye, I'd better stop now. I've tried to be as diplomatic as I can here... I have supported the USET over the years and my family have been members of the AHSA (now USAE) for years. I, too, wish they could have worked together for the good of the sport. But, it sure doesn't look like that's going to happen unless the USOC somehow forces it to happen and I'm not sure how that would happen. The whole thing is almost so stupid that it isn't worth the time it's taking me to type this. But, the future of our sport DOES depend on what will be happening later this month in Austin. Here's to hoping that the cooler, caring and intelligent heads prevail, wherever they might be from...
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E



  12. #112
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    USA Eq/AHSA has always done all of the international entries for US riders competing abroad, even for those doing so as part of the USET. Selecting the teams may have been done by the USET, pursuant to its charter to aid the AHSA in its role as NGB, but the AHSA/USA Eq did and does all the entries.

    The AHSA/USA Eq has also always had an international desk, and has always helped the more than 85% of all US equestrian athletes competing internationally who are not doing so as part of a USET program. Those international tasks are being expanded due to the USET's NGB challenge and its continued refusal to combine forces with USA Eq, but this is hardly USA Eq's "first real foray" into dealing with international competition.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  13. #113
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    Thank you for that clarification, Portia. I had thought this was the case, but did not know.
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E



  14. #114
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    There are some (GM, et al) who say that we should not have sent a 3 person team because without a drop score they were destined to lose and therefore be an "embarassment" [GM's word] to the USA. Here's a hypthetical:

    What if the USET had sent the original 4 person/horse team that was scheduled to go, and one of those riders or horses -- along with a reserve if we had one -- was injured prior to the final and couldn't compete. Would the USET have then withdrawn the other three riders and horses, because they no longer had a drop score and they were therefore destined to lose and be "an embarassment" to our country?

    Has the USET ever gone forward with a Nations Cup team with only 3 riders and horses competing?
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  15. #115
    Coreene is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    We - and I speak for quite a few of us - are merely saddened that Alice, Richard and Clare are on the receiving end of such rude comments from members of USET and other riders.

    No one suggested that anyone should have flown over right after the tragedy, but to stand behind this excuse of "How unpatrotic" and is totally uncalled for, especially when some of the biggest loudmouths were quite happy to dash off to the Gold Cup a few days later.

    And no one is criticizing those who did ride at the Gold Cup in and of itself, but merely pointing out to the loudmouths that you can't have it both ways.

    So, Karen G etc, we are not "attacking" people for not going, we are merely taken aback at the hypocricy and saddened that these comments come at the expense of the riders who did go.
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  16. #116
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    Look at the headline on the Samsung web page -- It's not about winning or losing, it was about being there.


    Stars and Stripes at Samsung Nations Cup Final
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  17. #117
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Emmet:

    IMHO USAE would have come out of this the "bigger man" had they stood united with USET on their decision to withdraw. Regardless of what the FEI and Samsung wanted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I dunno, Emmet, I have tried to see this view, and all I can think of is why - after all was said and done - didn't the USET just unite with the USAE on this issue? Or at least disavow any hurtful remarks against those 3 riders made by various people who could be considered to be speaking on their behalf? An after the fact statement to the effect that while they would have preferred to field the highest qualified team for the Nation's Cup, but in light of the special request by the FEI/Samsung, and the unique circumstances, fielding this team was a valuable statement about how the American Spirit endures.

    If they wanted to think about it as being gracious, or being clever after they were out-maneuvered by Slick Spin Artists, it would have really not mattered to the great many people in this world, but it would have been a good gesture on their part (face saving or noble, pick your description).

    On a separate note, I have seen some references to derogatory comments to the original team. While I have not seen any remarks directed against the original team (only references), I honestly hope that no one has done such. Those 4 riders deserve our support and committment as much as the 3 riders who ended up in Spain, and it was through no fault of their own that they were not there.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  18. #118
    Coreene is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    We are equally as proud of the chosen team as we are of those who went. It's the riders who have chosen to trash the three in Madrid that make the entire thing so unfortunate.

    But at the end of the day we DID field a team and our flag did wave. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  19. #119
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
    Quote: "Originally posted by Emmet:

    IMHO USAE would have come out of this the "bigger man" had they stood united with USET on their decision to withdraw. Regardless of what the FEI and Samsung wanted. "


    I dunno, Emmet, I have tried to see this view, and all I can think of is why - after all was said and done - didn't the USET just unite with the USAE on this issue? Or at least disavow any hurtful remarks against those 3 riders made by various people who could be considered to be speaking on their behalf? An after the fact statement to the effect that while they would have preferred to field the highest qualified team for the Nation's Cup, but in light of the special request by the FEI/Samsung, and the unique circumstances, fielding this team was a valuable statement about how the American Spirit endures.

    If they wanted to think about it as being gracious, or being clever after they were out-maneuvered by Slick Spin Artists, it would have really not mattered to the great many people in this world, but it would have been a good gesture on their part (face saving or noble, pick your description).

    On a separate note, I have seen some references to derogatory comments to the original team. While I have not seen any remarks directed against the original team (only references), I honestly hope that no one has done such. Those 4 riders deserve our support and committment as much as the 3 riders who ended up in Spain, and it was through no fault of their own that they were not there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Bingo yet again, DMK (you must have won something by now [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ).

    In addition, I think the remarks criticizing the riders in Spain and USA Eq could have been expressed in a much more constructive form, therefore eliminating the need for tricky disavowals or tempering of meanings. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    Emmet, as I've hinted before (and as many others have as well) you bet I'd be worried, despite lauriep's reassuring remarks!

    But I do think that in these EXTREMELY EXCEPTIONAL circumstances, it was the right thing to send a three man team without a chef d'equipe(just MVHumbleO, FWIW). And I don't think one can extrapolate anything dire about USA Eq's competence in fielding and sending future teams--if it ends up being the case that they do based on the USOC decision--from this instance.

    Again, I'd like to think that both organizations' decisions were made, at least in part [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img] , because they believed they were doing what was best.
    Tinwhistle Farm



  20. #120
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    Do we think that all of the NFL owners and players, all the major league owners and players and all involved with NASCAR agreed not to compete? I can't imagine they did but what they did do was put on a united front.

    Too bad our sport couldn't have done the same. Either way.



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