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  1. #81
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    \"in the wind, and rain, looking for the sun..................\"
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    Thank you Jumphigh83, that is so very true. And unfortunately, easily done.

    Flash44 if you think the good ole days were golden, well.......We had many of the same problems then. It seems where ever horses are concerned, people who use drugs abound. The race track can attest to that.



  2. #82
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    For those of you who propose environmental studies or round the clock private security at shows- who is going to pay for these things?

    Are you prepared to pay higher membership dues to fund a study through the Drugs & Medication program? Are you willing to pay your trainer with a bigger check at every show to cover the cost of a guard and a drug screening program for the entire staff?

    In an ideal world, everybody could have perfect conditions, but as it is... As the saying goes, good help is hard to find. When you think of the number of people who may come in contact with your horse at a show- the grooms, the braiders, the farrier, the night watch person, the guys who deliver feed, etc., there may be grounds for reasonable doubt when a substance shows up as a trace level.

    Maybe it's time the rules reflect this while still punishing the people who intentionally break the rules.



  3. #83
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    Apr. 23, 2001
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    Saratoga Springs, NY & Fairfield, CT
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
    Boo Hoo indeed if you DID NOT do it!! Moral of the story..walk through the tents and "accidently" drop a few pinches of an illegal substance into the feed tubs of your "favorite" trainers and watch the suspensions mount! All due respect to the "list" on the hearing committee but some of them need to have "emeritus" after their names! When are you too old/jaded/biased to make an informed decision? Just because the list is long, doesn't mean the depth of understanding is as deep as the list is long.

    Betsy
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    AMEN Betsy!

    "Just when you thought something was idiot proof, they go and make a better idiot...damned evolution"
    --------------------------
    I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
    -- John Keats



  4. #84
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    Jan. 27, 2000
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    LOL. Jumphigh. There are some individuals on that list who I bet haven't been to a horse show in twenty years!



  5. #85
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    Jun. 30, 2000
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    The Confederacy
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Gee, Jimmy - glad to hear about your "up & coming" status, you spring chicken, you [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    DMK - Can you repost the picture of Jimmy showing Raven that is printed on parchment paper?



  6. #86
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    Apr. 23, 2001
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    LOL Emmet!!

    "Just when you thought something was idiot proof, they go and make a better idiot...damned evolution"
    --------------------------
    I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
    -- John Keats



  7. #87
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    May. 12, 2001
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    PA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
    (I'm not understanding why stable security is seen) as such an insurmountable issue...

    So your staff does drugs...isn't it the responsiblility of the trainer to hire people with integrity?

    Shouldn't there be an advantage to running a "clean" outfit?

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I completely agree M. O'Connor, now so as not to imply you meant anymore than the above I'm gonna interject my opinion [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    When you choose to train and take responsibility for people's horses having security on them is not an option it is a necessity. So if the trainer had such help that accidentally gave the horse drugs, did drugs and the horse ate the hay (???), let someone get in to give the horse drugs yes I still feel the trainer should be punished. It's their JOB, what horse owners are paying them to do, to make sure things like that can't happen. Nelgect of an animal's welfare is imo equally as bad if not worse than drugging for enhanced performance.

    How the heck could someone get in and slip a horse cocaine if they were properly watched by competent, knowledgable staff? I don't think they could. The whole money required for that type of staff argument is absurd. Everyone knows there's money in this sport. I would guess there is even more moeny in the families of those who train with the top trainers who would be at risk for the "sabotage" everyone is describing. Solution, charge more. Hire better help. Stop whining and do something to change the system (or your own system) if ya don't like it.

    Jess
    *`*`*

    \"I\'ve this creeping
    suspicion that things here are not as they seem...\"



  8. #88
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    Apr. 23, 2001
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    Most of the time...it isn't someone on the staff who does it.

    And I just have a question..do you show?

    "Just when you thought something was idiot proof, they go and make a better idiot...damned evolution"
    --------------------------
    I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
    -- John Keats



  9. #89
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    May. 17, 2000
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    Where am I and what am I doing in this handbasket?
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VTrider:

    DMK - Can you repost the picture of Jimmy showing Raven that is printed on parchment paper?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You is treadin' on dangerous ground, missy [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] However old the spring chicken might be, he is still younger than me... Keep it up and I may have to send horse show hexes your way [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  10. #90
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    Jun. 19, 1999
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    Averill Park NY and Citra Fl
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    It is VERY easy to "slip" something to a horse at a show. No one is around for MOST of the night save the braiders who are busy doing their jobs..Night watch is for issues like colic and casting not to prevent someone from "accidently" dropping something in another horses feed tub. It is VERY east to get access to the horses at an A show! I don't think using drugs on a horse is right BUT I do think there should be a presumption of innocense since there are so MANY variables that are beyond the control of the "trainer" and/owner/horseshow manager/rider etc! Look how easy it was to KILL horses at a show!!! (with a light socket!!) No one "noticed" until the next morning the horse was DEAD! And we are supposed to be able to watch our horses 24/7??!!!! I am not being pollyanna about this but one could do irrepairable damage to someone's repute without trying too hard if one was so inclined...and they would have NO defense! THAT is scarey!!!!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]

    Betsy
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way...
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  11. #91
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    Nov. 15, 1999
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    Middleburg VA and Southampton NY
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    <<For those of you who propose environmental studies or round the clock private security at shows- who is going to pay for these things?

    Are you prepared to pay higher membership dues to fund a study through the Drugs & Medication program? Are you willing to pay your trainer with a bigger check at every show to cover the cost of a guard and a drug screening program for the entire staff?>>

    <<And we are supposed to be able to watch our horses 24/7??!!!! I am not being pollyanna about this but one could do irrepairable damage to someone's repute without trying too hard if one was so inclined...and they would have NO defense! THAT is scarey!!!!!!>>

    My point is that if the rules are going to be considered unenforceable due to "outsiders" or staff members who use drugs having access to horses at shows...there are only two possibilities if fairness is desired, so either:

    1) throw out the rule entirely,
    or
    2)don't allow the access.

    A study of the issue of environmental contamination paid for by the AHSA (USAE or whatever) is entirely in order, if anyone is to respect the rule. Perhaps a charitable donation might be solicited from a wealthy individual or group who desires an answer to the question. And to be safe, rather than sorry, extra costs for security may end up being a necessary additional cost.

    It seems to me that leaving the question of environmental contamination open, and continuing the practices that result in lax security only play into the hands of those who would rather the drug rules and their enforcement remain a gray area. "Close the loopholes and find the answers" seems like common sense to me.

    [This message was edited by M. O'Connor on Oct. 21, 2001 at 08:31 AM.]



  12. #92
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    May. 2, 2001
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    Lake Worth, Florida USA
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    I know nothing about this issue and would never dare to judge anyone, including Jimmy Torano....but regarding security at horse shows you would think that it would behove the people showing at this level to actually hire a private firm. Why the hell not? With the price tags on some of these horses I would think a professional security guard would be chump change. If I had an "asset" valued so high that I have insured it why wouldn't I have somewhere there to watch over it at all times? Maybe this is impractical, maybe not, but with a barn chock full of wealthy people another paycheck can't put such a huge strain on the pocketbook. And it is true I haven't been to a horseshow to exhibit in at least 15 years but I do go and watch all the time. It does seem particularly easy to enter a stabling area without supervision, far easier then at the racetrack. I remember, as a kid, people cutting tails off horses and painting horses and doing all sorts of "bad" things. his could be avoided if you had 24 hour security.

    Just a thought.
    ****************************
    \"Just when I thought I was out ,They pull me back in!\"
    -Sylvio Dante--\"The Sopranos\"



  13. #93
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    Jun. 21, 1999
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    Or we could look at it from the another angle. Let the punishment fit the crime. If the trainer, owner, handlers, groom and all barn personnel test negative for the drug in question then it can be said that it must have been given intentionally and therefore would warrant a huge penalty. If someone in direct contact with the horse tests positive then the trainer would be censured provided the employee was terminated and appropriate barn discipline was taken.

    I have been at A shows where security was nonexistent. And as far as nightwatch goes at one show one of our horses got out of his stall and they didn't even bother to find out why he was missing. Just drew a line through the rest of the night. No call to anyone. Hmmm wonder why the halter and lead rope are here and NO horse? Thankfully the horse wasn't hurt and just got a free night grazing but still. If he had tested positive for something the trainer would have been nailed for it and we certainly hadn't let him out all night where he could have been exposed to something and we relied on nightwatch to ensure the horse was in his stall. At WIHS last year even without ID I was able to go in and out of the stable area without being questioned to visit friends who were there and I believe that there were many complaints about the homeless being in the stable area. If a horse had tested positive in that case and the team handling it were negative how would the AHSA prove that one of the homeless people (who are known to have serious drug problems especially cocaine) didn't contaminate a horse? Should the trainer take the hit when the show isn't providing responsible grounds security after hours? Natty is right. If you are riding million dollar horses for a client then adding the cost of a private security person to watch them after hours shouldn't be a big issue if it ensures the safety of the animal and the integrity of the barn/trainer. Plus, I would think that if there was a positive test and the security guard was found to be responsible either through not performing their duties or having their own drug problem (like at the racetrack here this summer) then the trainer would have recourse in court to sue the company hired for their losses.

    It still goes back to the rules have to be applied EQUALLY to all riders. Not just the ones who can't afford to fight the issue with expensive lawyers.
    \"The credit belongs to those people who are actually in the arena...who know the great enthusiasms, the great devotions to a worthy cause; who at best, know the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, fail while daring greatly, so that their



  14. #94
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    Jun. 19, 1999
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    Security ALL NIGHT????!!!! Surely you jest!!! Not all of us showing are Jane Clark (who by the way DOES have personal security for her horses) That would be the end of showing for the "regular" guy, thus reinforcing and perpetuating the elitist image of showing (mostly because it WOULD be)I am not saying throw out the rules or to hell with the suspensions I AM saying that the current system is not working!! Once again the AHSA puts the enforcement onus on the exhibitor...(I saw so and so lurking around the barn etc...) there is NO way to know WHO gave the substance to the horses, beyond a reasonable doubt. What is the answer? I don;t know but it isn't "fair" the way it is because the trainer/owner/rider are NOT the only ones with access to the horses....MOST of the gernal public have access too...way to easy to implicate someone and damage their repute and business without their knowledge and or consent.

    Betsy
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way...
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  15. #95
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    May. 12, 2001
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    PA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky22:
    Most of the time...it isn't someone on the staff who does it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, but if people are getting in past whomever is supposed to be responsible for the horses at night then the staff isn't doing a stellar job are they?

    I'm not saying the system is perfect, since obviously if Mr. Torano is innocent it isn't. However, I AM saying that theoretically if a horse was drugged by someone on "the other team" it isn't entirely NOT the trainer's fault.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And I just have a question..do you show? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    And from left field here it comes! I used to but now event, this whole thread makes me glad I do too. My horse is calm enough after all that dressage, no need for drugs there [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    Jess
    *`*`*

    \"I\'ve this creeping
    suspicion that things here are not as they seem...\"



  16. #96
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    Nov. 15, 1999
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    Middleburg VA and Southampton NY
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    24 hour security isn't so far fetched at all...and I can see it now: a little box next to the stall order line on the entry blank: "Secured" stabling or "Insecured" stabling...hmmmm...at ea. tent 50 stalls x $5per night x 5 nights =$1250 per week for the security guard per each tent with 50 stalls, at a $25 cost to the exhibitor...another show related industry is born....



  17. #97
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    Oct. 5, 1999
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    \"in the wind, and rain, looking for the sun..................\"
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    Oh sure, now that you have spelled it out for them M.O'Connor, you know it will be right around the corner. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    And as Jumphigh stated, it will put most people out by just the $$$$...



  18. #98
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    Jul. 7, 2001
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    539

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    While extra security is a possible choice, why not fix the rule so that it reflects innocent until proven guilty. Basically, the rule is not fair to those who do not drug their horses, try to be fair and have a good name, are concerned with their reputation and then have their horses test for traces of a substance. Then the punishments are not the same, again based on who you are, who your attorney is and how much you spend to defend yourself. I doubt seriously if someone has a high powered lawyer who keeps raising issues and doesn't let inconsistancies drop, if they are punished to the extent others who protest but do not have such savy legal expertise do--and that does not come cheap so who does this actually favor.

    No, I don't think someone should be put out of showing because of the price of stabling, but I also don't find it fair to be accused of something and basically be told you are responsible becauseyou signed your name to a piece of paper when the accusor cannot prove it was you who did the drugging. Showing can be a cut throat business and I do not find it surprising that someone would drug another person's horse to put it out of the running for indoors or other awards. Drugging is wrong, but people being punished for things they have not done is disgusting. I have to say that I always look at these "suspensions" with a bit of a wary eye because it is just too easy to ruin someone's reputation in an instant.



  19. #99
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    Jun. 22, 1999
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    Edgemont, Pa. USA
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    Having paid for professional security guards, I can assure the cost is very, very high. Unless you can one person at the end of each aisle, who can also see what is going on on the backside of your stalls, it is only an attempt at security.
    At the race track the stable area is surrounded by chain link fence.
    NO ONE is permitted past the stable area without picture ID, whick requires a back round search before you ever get a perm card.
    NO ONE casually walks into another trainers barn.
    The public never casually walks up to a horse in its stall and gives it a pat, a treat or a trick.
    It is too bad that it is so easy to tamper with our horses.



  20. #100
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    Dec. 11, 1999
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    Ft. lauderdale, FL, USA
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Palomino19:



    Quote: "
    And I would like to think that if their lives really revolved around the horses (and not the $$) they wouldn't dare to get involved in something as stupid as drugging a horse.

    I am an equine professional. I would not even know where to begin as far as drugging a horse to enhance their performance. So as a precursor to the following post- I do NOT condone this practice HOWEVER, I can see where others can try to justify drugging an animal for an easier horse show....you do not realize as an amateur or a junior how much stress is on a pro's head- and I don't even do the A circuit!


    "What's that saying about if ya can't stand the heat? Oh yeah...get out of the horse show business! Boo freaking hoo b**** or no b**** a hard life is NOT ever an excuse to break the rules. I'll be sure to try that one the next time I get pulled over for speeding "well officer my job is really tough..."

    This comparison is nowhere near valid. AS an example, my trainer was fined by the AHSA when I was a junior. It was a couple thousand dollars by the time she gave up trying to appeal. My horse had seemed muscle sore and she gave him banamine. She was not aware the manager had already fed him dinner with bute in it after noticing the same thing. We were drug tested....suddenly she is a huge criminal?



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