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  1. #1
    Miss S Guest

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    Well I finally decided to post after being a long-time lurker because there is this situation that is bothering me...

    At this lesson/show barn that I know there are a number of people teaching lessons that show in the Amateur divisions. Some of them just came out of the junior ranks and had started as camp counselors, but now are teaching a few group and private lessons as adults and showing in the Amateur hunters. One of them is actually a relative of the owners... There is also one lady that teaches all day Saturdays, privates during the week, and coaches at shows. She does the Amateur hunters, jumpers, and equitation. And there is another girl that comes in and subs for other instructors who is very successful on the Amateur jumper circuit.

    Of course they say that none of them are paid, but how many people really teach all those lessons for nothing??? And I know for a fact that checks are being issued to some of them on a regular basis, although I'm sure the management would say it was for "barn work." I don't think the person that teaches and coaches the most actually gets a check, but she has 2 horses there and is rumored to be getting free board on at least one of them, but that horse also gets used in lessons so I'm sure they'll say that's the reason. I do know that she was paid to school a student's horse at a show last year, but that was kept very hush-hush.

    So this matter falls into that very gray area of proving that someone is not an Amateur. I finally gave up my Amateur status to teach a few lessons a week so I could afford to show my horse. I felt it was the right thing to do because that's what the AHSA says. Now this woman is competing against and occasionally beating my students in the Amateurs, although she really shouldn't be there at all! And coaching at the same shows!

    What should I do? Most of the girls at that barn are really nice and probably have never even read the AHSA rules on Amateur status because they are going by what the barn management has told them is okay. I'm sure the one lady is well aware of the rules, but she and the owners are covering it up so she can do the M&S and medals. I really don't want to be a snitch, but this is just not fair to all the other "real" amateurs out there. Any suggestions? I'm sure if I talked to them privately I would be made out to be the bad guy, spoiling it for all these people that just needed a few extra dollars to show. I know that to file a formal protest with the AHSA it is expensive and you have to have proof. That would be hard since the barn is covering for all these people, and it comes down to one persons word against anothers. Is there any way to censor the barn? I heard that they actually had someone set down a few years back for showing in the Amateurs while teaching there...



  2. #2
    Miss S Guest

    Default

    Well I finally decided to post after being a long-time lurker because there is this situation that is bothering me...

    At this lesson/show barn that I know there are a number of people teaching lessons that show in the Amateur divisions. Some of them just came out of the junior ranks and had started as camp counselors, but now are teaching a few group and private lessons as adults and showing in the Amateur hunters. One of them is actually a relative of the owners... There is also one lady that teaches all day Saturdays, privates during the week, and coaches at shows. She does the Amateur hunters, jumpers, and equitation. And there is another girl that comes in and subs for other instructors who is very successful on the Amateur jumper circuit.

    Of course they say that none of them are paid, but how many people really teach all those lessons for nothing??? And I know for a fact that checks are being issued to some of them on a regular basis, although I'm sure the management would say it was for "barn work." I don't think the person that teaches and coaches the most actually gets a check, but she has 2 horses there and is rumored to be getting free board on at least one of them, but that horse also gets used in lessons so I'm sure they'll say that's the reason. I do know that she was paid to school a student's horse at a show last year, but that was kept very hush-hush.

    So this matter falls into that very gray area of proving that someone is not an Amateur. I finally gave up my Amateur status to teach a few lessons a week so I could afford to show my horse. I felt it was the right thing to do because that's what the AHSA says. Now this woman is competing against and occasionally beating my students in the Amateurs, although she really shouldn't be there at all! And coaching at the same shows!

    What should I do? Most of the girls at that barn are really nice and probably have never even read the AHSA rules on Amateur status because they are going by what the barn management has told them is okay. I'm sure the one lady is well aware of the rules, but she and the owners are covering it up so she can do the M&S and medals. I really don't want to be a snitch, but this is just not fair to all the other "real" amateurs out there. Any suggestions? I'm sure if I talked to them privately I would be made out to be the bad guy, spoiling it for all these people that just needed a few extra dollars to show. I know that to file a formal protest with the AHSA it is expensive and you have to have proof. That would be hard since the barn is covering for all these people, and it comes down to one persons word against anothers. Is there any way to censor the barn? I heard that they actually had someone set down a few years back for showing in the Amateurs while teaching there...



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 1999
    Location
    Mendocino County, CA: Turkey Vulture HQ
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    14,874

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    No, they are not amateurs. And the rules very specifically state that being paid for barn work, and "teaching for free" is not acceptable.

    I am surprised they are getting away with coaching at shows.

    If they're teaching that much, I don't have a lot of sympathy, but I think one of the big problems with the way the h/j divisions are set up is that there really isn't anyplace for non-amateurs to show unless they have the horsepower to do the big jumps. I know some amateurs who skirt the line by occassionally exercising horses or teaching an up-down lesson here or there, and I wouldn't rat on someone like that, but it sounds like the people you describe are quite thoroughly ignoring the rules.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 30, 2000
    Location
    The Confederacy
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    Nope, and these are the people that make me sick!

    I know a few of these and if they were a little dumber, I would turn them in to the AHSA in half a heart beat!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul. 23, 1999
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    191

    Default

    No, they are not amateurs. I think I know the barn you're speaking of and it's no secret that this is how they operate. If they followed AHSA rules, they would NOT be allowed to show as amateurs.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2000
    Location
    Amissville, VA, US
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    Maybe someone could protest them??
    **Before you can be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.**



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul. 23, 1999
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    191

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    What about the parents who are paying good money for a lesson to be taught by a teenager or "amateur" that has no business teaching.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov. 20, 2000
    Location
    Wes Mincer
    Posts
    3,178

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    She's talking about me, guys! Yep, that's right, your very own Margaret Fiester. And by the way, I do not get paid -- I do not get a break in board, I do not get perks or favors from the Gladmons or Catherine. I pay for my own lessons, including my privates, and I pay Catherine for coaching and trailering me.

    I teach because I love teaching and I love kids. I don't have any kids of my own and I was a VERY troubled teenager (maybe this is why I feel a real affinity for Kelsy) and riding really was a lifesaver during my teenage years, so the reason I am doing this is to "give back" a little bit to a sport I have loved for over 25 years.

    SO there that is it! I am really, really upset by this post, and wish this person (who obviously knows me) would have asked me. I am only too happy to let people know that I do not get paid, have never gotten paid, and will never get paid. It is very sad that this person is so jealous and it is silly too, because Moesha can tell you I don't do very well in the jumper divisions!

    Anyway, if anyone would like to e-mail me, please feel free to do so. I don't think I have done anything wrong, and I don't have anything to hide.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2000
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    Amissville, VA, US
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    If you aren't getting paid, you are still an amatuer.

    Thanks for posting. It is very noble of you to feel you should give back to the sport. I know that I owe a lot of people out there!

    Keep in mind, though, that although you don't get paid there are LOTS of psuedo amatuers out there right now and it works the nerves of a lot of us who aren't making a dime off the horses just so we can stay amatuers!
    **Before you can be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.**



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 2000
    Location
    Alexandria, VA USA
    Posts
    1,859

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    There is another girl in Northern VA that does teach at her mother's boarding barn to subsidize her being a groom at her trainers. She shows in the Adult Amateurs too. She actually won a class on an old lovely App at the Middleburg Classic two years ago and talk was then to protest her. But she still is going strong. The only good thing is she is usually not a threat to any other A/A and waching her throw crying fits and tantrums is usually most entertaining to say the least. Catty, you bet, but people who throw the biggest stones live in the biggest glass house! She likes to make disparaging remarks about others, well what goes round comes round. I try to find the good in her but have yet to see it. I will keep trying! Only the true amateurs can fix this situation by protesting. But having the hard tangiable evidence can be hard to come by.

    Thank you for letting me vent! I will try to be more charitable in the future.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2000
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    Youngsville, NC
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    Back in the days when I showed and actually had an amateur card, the one thing that I assiduously avoided was teaching. I supported my habit by braiding, hauling and 'babysitting'. I rarely paid for a hotel room because I usually had a junior in tow whose parents couldn't/wouldn't come to the show. On rare occasions I would warm one of the kids up or coach one at a show when the trainer wasn't available (i.e., we went to a local show while everybody else was at an A or trainer was off judging somewhere). But the fact that I did it at all could have led to misconceptions by those who didn't know me.
    'Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.'
    - Pablo Picasso



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 23, 1999
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    191

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    I think this is just a very touchy subject for most of the true amateurs out there. Why should some follow the rules and others be allowed to continually break them.

    Margaret-I don't think Miss S was personally attacking you. If you want to teach for free, that's great! I applaude you. But let's face it, that's not the way it usually works and people will always assume the worst.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun. 30, 2000
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    The Confederacy
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you aren't getting paid, you are still an amatuer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Actually, a very reliable source from this BB told me that even if you are say teaching lessons to work off board/feed/hay/hauling - you can't show as an amateur. Am I right?



  14. #14
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    Aug. 23, 2000
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    Youngsville, NC
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    VTrider, I THINK working off board, etc. constitutes remumeration.
    'Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.'
    - Pablo Picasso



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2000
    Posts
    1,504

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    If you get ANYTHING in exchange for teaching, you are a professional. You are allowed to accept a token of appreciation but I believe that is only for riding. Someone whip out the rule book on that one.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 2000
    Location
    Alexandria, VA USA
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    You are right VT. ANY renumeration up to $300 makes you a pro.Bartering for board is a payment of sorts. You put a price on your talents and trade then for someone elses wares. Basically putting a monetary cost to your services....



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul. 23, 1999
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    191

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    Article 809. Amateur Certification.

    1. Every person who has reached his/her 18th birthday and competes in classes for amateurs under AHSA rules must possess current amateur certification issued by the AHSA. This certification must be available for inspection or the competitor must have lodged with the competition secretary, at least one hour prior to such class, an application for such certification provided by the AHSA. Forms may be obtained from the AHSA. Certification will be issued only on receipt of the application properly signed and is revocable at any time for cause. Any person who has not reached his/her 18th birthday is an amateur and does not require amateur certification.

    2. An amateur continues to be such until he/she has received a change in status from the AHSA. Any amateur who wishes to be re-classified on the grounds that he/she has engaged or is planning on engaging in activities which would prevent him/her from continuing to remain an amateur must notify the AHSA in writing.

    3. There is no fee for amateur certification for Senior Active or Life Members. An annual fee of $30. will be charged for an amateur card or amateur certification for an individual who is not a member of the AHSA or CEF. Such certification will expire on November 30th.

    4. In the event that a person holds an unrevoked certification but does not have it in his/her immediate possession, the competition secretary may accept a signed affidavit to that effect which must be submitted to the AHSA.

    5. If a person violates or does not comply with the above, he/she will not be eligible to compete in amateur classes and will not be entitled to an award in such classes and will be deemed guilty of a violation within the meaning of Rule VII in the event he/she does compete.

    6. In the event a person is found to be a professional as a result of a protest or charge made in connection with a competition, all awards won by such person in amateur classes at such competition and subsequent competitions shall be forfeited and returned to the competition and the person shall be subject to further disciplinary action. The holding of an amateur card does not preclude the question of amateur standing being raised by a protest or charge.

    7.1 Any person whose application for amateur status or its renewal has been denied by the AHSA may request a hearing by the Hearing Committee or by such individual or committee as it may designate to review said decision. The request must be in writing and mailed to the Hearing Committee within ten (10) days from receipt of the decision sought to be reviewed and accompanied by $100.

    7.2 The hearing shall be after ten days notice to all parties concerned. The notice shall contain a brief statement of the facts reporting the position of the AHSA and shall specify the time and place at which the hearing is to be held. The person requesting said hearing may attend and bring witnesses, sworn statements or other evidence on his or her behalf. Upon the written request of a representative of the AHSA or of the person requesting the hearing, there shall be furnished before said hearing any evidence to be introduced, the names of witnesses and the substance of their testimony.

    7.3 The decision of the Hearing Committee or the person or committee designated to preside at said hearing shall be final.

    7.4 Protests or charges brought in connection with a person's amateur status shall be handled in accordance with the provisions of Rule VI.



  18. #18
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    Thanks Moe...

    Shamamateurs make my life hell!



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul. 23, 1999
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    MD
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    Default

    Amen to that VT



  20. #20
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    Apr. 6, 2000
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    Amissville, VA, US
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    How in the world do you prove someone isn't an amatuer?

    I realize you can file a protest, but can you PROVE it? Or so you have to hope someone that wrote them a check steps up?
    **Before you can be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.**



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