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  1. #41
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:
    Hey Tiramit -- I totally agree with you on the satisfaction gained from working with the horses yourself. You see...I have NO TRAINER at home. Never have. Only meet up with them at the shows, which is the only time my horses get the "professional tune"! LOL! Yes, I essentially do it all on my own at home.....so at the shows, when I get the pro to ride them for me - it's a special treat for everyone! LOL!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ahh, now that makes sense!! So in essence, you do it by yourself. We're in the same boat! In that case, congratulations on your prestigious win at Tahoe! As an aside, I don't think you'd have any problems with a test, so you don't qualify as a poser rider [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img].
    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford



  2. #42
    DMK is offline remain.com Premium Member
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    Ash, I have to agree with you on that one, and well said too. Like Colin, I don't have a trainer in the same state, so I have to carefully try to advance my horse in between horse shows while not doing things that might cause harm (it's a humbling experience to have to admit to yourself that you shouldn't attempt something because you will not do it well enough to teach the horse correctly... especially if you have spent your whole life trying to do this better than you did on the last victim, er, horse). Times with trainers are few and far between, but they MUST be used to advance us as a team.

    I too don't particularly like losing to a person who literally mounted the (expensive) horse at the ingate, but if I was truly honest, I personally don't see that as the great majority of riders I ride against (at the A/A or A/O level). From my view, any changes shouldn't punish the many who don't abuse the priviledge, to get at a few exceptions.

    Hattie - you have valid points - one more division is a lot, but maybe since it wouldn't really be adding class time (no cross entries here), it wouldn't mean more work/less profit for the horse shows. Also, like Jr/AO at C shows, maybe under certain circumstances (class size) the class could still be combined, but would be pinned separately?
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  3. #43
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    Sorry I still disagree. I have seen too many kids and adults hurt because they irroneously believed that they could "deal with whatever comes up, at home"..home is not the horse show. SMART people seek help when they need it, the others , I think are not only arrogant, but ignorant. It would be really nice if we all had the ability to make up horses, but sadly that is NOT the case. MOST horses ridden by juniors and amateurs would benefit from an educated ride, and this is NOT an afront to anyone..only acknowledging the expertise of those that CAN make up horses for the juniors and amateurs to show. Why do dog onwers send their dogs with pro handlers? Why do race car owners pay a driver..why do race horse owners hire a jockey? If you want something done right, go to an expert in the field and then let them do their job.
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  4. #44
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    I have the luxury of hauling my own horse to the show. She goes when I go. No waiting around the show grounds in a stall which would necessitate a ride by someone other than myself.

    I don't ride multiple horses a day. I consider myself fortunate that I simply get her worked 5 or 6 days. I do go to the barn EVERY DAY. No, she is not at my house. I commute 1.5 hours from my office to get to her. My point being that knowing your horse the best doesn't require riding 7 horses a day or having them in your back yard.

    My trainer loves her, but he doesn't know her anywhere near as well as I do. I like it that way. If something were to happen and he couldn't meet me at the ring, I could go in and get the job done. It's a very good feeling.



  5. #45
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ash:
    Tiramit-
    I think I can answer your question to Colin. To become a rider that can tune your own horse to the same level as a professionalÂ… you have to be a professional! I really believe that the major difference between a lot of the amateurs and the pros is time spent in the saddle. If I could ride 6-10 horses everyday and show 4 days a week, I would certainly be better qualified to tune my own horse. But the reality is I ride 3 times a week at best (usually 1 or 2) and show up after the schooling classes are done (they are usually during the week) and really don't have the desire to waste my $$$ tuning my horse in an A/O class. If my trainer can tool him around on Friday in a schooling class, then why not? Is that considered to be unfair or un-sportsmen like behavior? Hardly! There is a big difference between a person who gets on at the gate and one who has a pro tune their horse during the week. Trust me, I wish I was wealthy enough to be at every show all week long to do my own horse, but I am not. I refuse to be ashamed of the fact that I have my trainer ride my horse.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Whoa, I NEVER said that it was wrong for pros to ride horses for others, just agreeing with others who commented on those pseudo-riders who take advantage of pros at shows, as in hopping on at the gate [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]. No problems with hard working people who are stuck in the office. Honestly though, if one can't warm one's horse up immediately before a class (as in some of the above stories), should one really be showing?

    I also work a long week and couldn't make it to the early parts of shows, so having someone hack my horse may be an option (never have, but who know in the future), BUT, I would most certainly ride my horse the day I did show and right before my class. Otherwise, I'd wonder if I was even a part of the showing team that would seem to mainly consist of my trainer and my horse! Where exactly is the rider in this little group? Why not just tie sacks of flour to the horses and see which one makes it around the course? It's a riding class, so ride the horse (not directed at anyone specific, just letting out some general frustrations)!

    However much I may be reemed for this comment, I still contend that maintaining amateur status does not preclude one from being a good rider with skills enough to warm-up a horse. My point is that having a pro ride should be a tool for the immediate, not as a standard practice and most definitely NOT as a qualifier for winning a class / division. And yes, it is possible to still be a good rider on three rides a week. Just make sure those rides count [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]! Surely one can learn enough about one's own horse in that time?
    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford



  6. #46
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    When I first started riding (in my mid-20s), I couldn't afford to let my trainers ride my horse, but I was of the opinion "My hobby, my horse, my riding" (for better or worse).

    I'm still of that opinion and I have never had a pro warm up my horse for a class I was to ride in.

    BUT, I had an amateur horse in the late '80s that was a difficult horse to ride. If a jump was moved from one side of the ring to another, that would be reason enough to put me on the ground. I didn't always have what it took to hand ride him around a new course -- especially when he would go to a show ahead of me and I had to drive in on a Thursday night after work.

    My trainer often showed him in pregreen and, later, first year green classes. But I would do the warm up and riding for the A/A and A/O. We did quite well -- 5th in the state on the basis of only 7 horse shows in A/O and first year (and sometimes I rode him in the first year). But he was never easy and I could win a class on him one day and be eating dirt the next.

    Now that I event, the rules are so very different. No one but the exhibitor can ride a horse at an event or horse trials -- unless it's the groom WALKING the horse to or from the competition arena.

    Fortunately, my mare never looks at a thing -- pretty much a necessity for eventing anyway.

    My jump trainer has been on her once -- early on in her jumping so I could see what she looked like. And my dressage trainer has been on her once -- ditto. And Karen O'Connor got on her in January to help me work out some submission issues during a clinic.

    Like Tiramit, I get immense satisfaction out of knowing that, for better or worse, I did the work on the horse that I'm riding. Not even seeing a pro win a big class on your horse can equal that feeling.



  7. #47
    DMK is offline remain.com Premium Member
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    Bascule, I respect your position and admire your dedication, I truly do, mostly because I think you and I think the same.

    I too trailer my horse to shows, and I also go to the barn every day, and I am pretty much the sole rider/trainer for my horse. NOBODY, and I mean, nobody knows my horse better than I. The trainers I have ridden with know this and respect my opinion when I give them advice on how to ride my horse (and are kind enough to not remind me when I am wrong [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ).

    That being said, I have a horse who I truly believe is a nice horse, and it is a goal of mine to bring along a nice first year horse. I am like so many who post here - when that horse does well in a class (regardless of what the judge's might say), I take pride in his accomplishments, because they are, in part, my accomplishments, even though a professional rode him in that class. I know the "pro" didn't make him the horse he is, he just bought out the abilities that I helped create, better than I ever could have. As I said, I don't think less of my talents, I just think I am part of a team.

    But what I really wonder is, because I do have a pro ride my horse in another division, or sometimes earlier in the week (NEVER on the same day, unless there is a class overlap) do you think that this gives me an unfair advantage over other A/A or A/O riders? I really am honestly asking this and not trying to be flip, because my perspective has always been that I feel at a disadvantage when I compete because I don't board with a trainer, most improvements are self taught with lessons few and far between, riding my ex-racehorse, who for better or worse, has primarily had DMK teaching him how to jump, and I get to compete against Jane Doe on Seeing Eye, who she just paid $250,000 for, and no, a trainer doesn't get on him, but why would he need to? So I apologize if this sounds like I am being critical, but the response to this thread was a little surprising to me, and I want to understand better the thought process behind everyone's opinion.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  8. #48
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
    SMART people seek help when they need it, the others , I think are not only arrogant, but ignorant. It would be really nice if we all had the ability to make up horses, but sadly that is NOT the case. MOST horses ridden by juniors and amateurs would benefit from an educated ride, and this is NOT an afront to anyone..only acknowledging the expertise of those that CAN make up horses for the juniors and amateurs to show. Why do dog onwers send their dogs with pro handlers? Why do race car owners pay a driver..why do race horse owners hire a jockey? If you want something done right, go to an expert in the field and then let them do their job.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hey Jumphigh, are you calling me arrogant and ignorant [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]?

    Just to clear my poor, singed name, I'll state that I can "make" a horse on my own, and that I have often been called to help people with their horses - by pros. No, I'm not a true professional in that I do it solely for the love of my sport and not money, but I could be... Thing is, I started riding as a kid from a non-horsey family and I learned and absorbed as much as I could over the years. Now I have to work all week to pay for my hobby, so sometimes I can't ride as often or as much as I wish, but that doesn't keep me from trying to become a better rider, and it hasn't shattered my dream of one day riding for the USET. And to become a better rider, I have to keep challenging myself and learning, and that wouldn't happen if my horse was dead quiet and perfect every time I tried to show. Granted, I'm not your average amateur, but then again, I don't seem to have the mindset of the amateurs described on this board (again, not directed at anyone in particular, just the poser-riders in general). Personally, the challenge and satisfaction of true accomplishemnt means so much more than ribbons to me, but again, I'm just a different sort of person... Please, I'm not saying anything against hard-working riders who need extra help, just that if we're supposed to be judged on riding, then maybe that's what we should be doing... I have everything against people who hop on at the gate and collect their ribbons - that's not riding!
    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford



  9. #49
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    DMK, your posts prove that you are a horsewoman, so I wouldn't worry about this advantage thing! You're doing all the hard work and are doing what you feel is the best way for your horse to realize his potential. Anyone who takes care of her own horse and can actually drive a trailer wihout killing horses shouldn't worry about having a pro help train your horse!
    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford



  10. #50
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    Part of being a horseman is understanding what kind of "program" works best for each particular horse. If a horse goes his best in the show ring immediately following a professional school, why is that such an issue?

    I fully agree with Jumphigh. Many situations would be dangerous for both horse and rider without the intervention of a professional. Some juniors and amateurs should be applauded for recognizing their limitations and asking for help. A bad warm up in the schooling area can destroy some horses' confidence and mindset entirely, sending them into the show ring hysterical and scared. Add that to an intermediate rider, or a rider who becomes paralyzed by nerves, and four times out of five an ambulance needs to be called.


    [This message has been edited by slugger (edited 08-23-2000).]



  11. #51
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slugger:
    A bad warm up in the schooling area can destroy some horses' confidence and mindset entirely, sending them into the show ring hysterical and scared. Add that to an intermediate rider, or a rider who becomes paralyzed by nerves, and four times out of five an ambulance needs to be called.


    [This message has been edited by slugger (edited 08-23-2000).]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not to belabor a point, but why are these people showing if they can't handle schooling? PLEASE, some give me an explaination, because I'm obviously not clueing in to something!!!!!
    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford



  12. #52
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    I'm in the same boat as DMK and Colin (horse at home, meet trainer at shows,...etc) why should we be penalized? Especially someone like DMK who has a professional show her horse in the green division and then she shows in the A/O's. I never considered this a problem, however, I do see the point of others that are upset about riders who have their horses schooled until they walk into the ring. My question is where do you draw the line and how do you write this rule up? Along this same line - go to Towerheads and read the Katie and Henri Prudent interview - very interesting and upfront comments!



  13. #53
    DMK is offline remain.com Premium Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HATTIE:
    I do see the point of others that are upset about riders who have their horses schooled until they walk into the ring. My question is where do you draw the line and how do you write this rule up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thanks, Hattie - this is EXACTLY what I was trying to say, but not so concisely and elegantly!

    Tiramet, thank you for your kind words - they are MUCH appreciated! (although if you have seen my white-knuckled approach to driving up and down what can truly be considered SMALL mountains, you might want to take your words back! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] )
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  14. #54
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    Oh Hattie, you've salvaged my afternoon. Thank you for the reference - and thanks Katie Prudent for a great interview. Gee, i suddenly don't feel so much like an outsider...
    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford



  15. #55
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    Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Some people love showing but become one step away from completely undone by nerves and cannot handle the commotion of the schooling area. Much in the same way a very bright student will take his/her SAT's untimed because the pressure of the clock makes him/her unable to perform. That is just one example.
    Another is an amateur rider who has little experience and education. Someone who doesn't understand the subtleties of the sport, yet wants to learn and most importantly compete. Many adults see horseback riding in the same light as tennis- a few lessons and bang! they're ready to do the Grand Prix. While such ignorance should not be encouraged, should a professional stand by idle when disaster is rapidly approaching or should a professional intervene by schooling the horse and preparing it to jump eight jumps safely? As I stated, such ignorance should not be encouraged, but does a person have to learn that lesson by becoming a quadrapalegic or seeing their horse die in the ring after a crash through a jump?
    Lastly, a personal antedote. As a junior, I constantly competed against a girl with a very fancy junior hunter. This horse was always warmed up and schooled by the girl's trainer. She got on in the gate and went in the show ring. This girl rode quite well, and had previously had an extremely difficult horse whom she schooled, etc. by herself with her trainer on the ground. It was quite the discussion at horse shows when she appeared with this ultra-fancy hunter and only rode in the show ring. This poor kid had cancer. She desparately wanted to ride and show although she was very physically limited. Her parents did everything they could- bought the nicest horse they could find, had the trainer do as much as possible, had junior catch-riders show the horse to accrue points when the girl was unable to show- so this girl could enjoy SOMETHING and accomplish her goals of going indoors before she passed away. I include this story in my post to illustrate that the whole story is not always visable. There are many reasons why people do what they do at horse shows. To assume that everyone is looking to "one-up" the competition prior to showing to increase their chances of winning the all mighty blue ribbon is ludicrous. As is feeling as though these people have an advantage. Most people I know would like to be able to ride so well and so often that they wouldn't need a professional. For those of you that don't need professianal assistance, perhaps those that do are leveling the playing field by having their horses brought up to the level your horses already are at prior to going in the ring.



  16. #56
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    No Tiramit I am not calling YOU ignorant or arrogant. I AM saying that that line of thinking is ignorant and arrogant. Maybe you are one of the very few that can develop a horse to its potential but MOST mortals out there (AA and AO and JR) are not and they should not be made to feel like less of a rider OR a horseman for being smart enough to know their limitations. That's all.
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  17. #57
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    Ladies - I have a confession! I just got back from dinner with a good friend, who is also an A/A rider(horses at home), and we discussed this thread. One of our most pleasureable shows was when we both showed at HITS on full day care - horses on automatic pilot! Stress gone! Princesses of the day! As our horses' personal professional stall muckers, tack cleaners, etc, it was truly a luxury! As 40+ year old women, who have paid our dues, we need that trainer! (Who would ever believe that you can actually sleep until 8:00, get breakfast, and not have green goop on your breeches before you show??!!)

    [This message has been edited by HATTIE (edited 08-23-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by HATTIE (edited 08-23-2000).]



  18. #58
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    Hattie you are a riot and would fit in perfectly at my barn! Our clientele is made up of ladies just like you--over 40, career, relationships but no kids(or grown kids)--been there done that with the horses and now they want a pleasurable experience--we prepare their horses at a show, by getting them into the low classes before the owners arrive and making sure they see every inch of the rings and grounds in the 2 or 3 days we have before the clients start showing up. The fun and relaxation they experience is worth it to them--and all their bonding and green slobbers and baths and grazing and hacking and just plain loving happens at home. The show is just a place where they'd rather be pampered a little.



  19. #59
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    With all due respect, it seems to me that a horse that NEEDS to be "tuned up" by a pro before showing is not really "suitable for an amater", which I THOUGHT was one of the judging criteria.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



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    My observations: (caution - these are ONLY southeastern observations)

    1. The A/A's at the C-rated and smaller A shows generally do not have trainers prepping their horses.

    2. Trainers do prep quite a few A/A horses at the larger A shows such as HITS and WPB. I believe this is because the A/A's are VERY competitive and expensive. Any advantage over the other competitors is needed in order to be in the ribbons.

    3. I daresay that 99.5% of the A/A's are "suitable to be ridden by an amateur". However even the most made animal has his quirks, for example, the horse that leans and takes you past the distance or the horse that is too quiet and you can't get him in front of your leg. The trainer just gives it that extra little "spark" that helps you be more competitive. If any of us (A/A riders) rode well enough to solve these problems then we would be doing the A/O's.

    Any solutions? I worry more about the mileage rule - pretty soon none of us will be able to afford to show!!



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