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  1. #1
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    Default Pedigree gurus -thoughts on a mare that came to me?

    Hi all, I have had a mare come to me who's life has been a bit sideways, but she physically looks like a super prospect for producing an event horse. Her name is "What a Wonder" - you experts can look her up on pedigreequery. From the pictues I can find there she looks like her ??? grandmother Scapa Flow. She is about 15'3, good neck, great engine, great gallop and walk, trot hard to tell due to previous mis-management. I'd be interested in your thoughts about whether there is anything interesting in her pedigree that would suggest a direction to breed her.



  2. #2
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    Can't find her - who is her sire?



  3. #3
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    If this is the USA 1998 What A Wonder, she has a definitely obscure pedigree. That does not, however, mean that she would not produce quite nice sporthorses, as Bruce Davidson has showed with his breeding program over and over. I believe that all thoroughbreds share about 75% of their genetics, so mares who are superior themselves might well be worth breeding. As far as I can tell from a very cursory examination, there is nothing particularly bad in the pedigree, but the big names are all far back.

    If you do have the 1998 model, evaluate her strengths and weaknesses. Do as much research on her lines as you can and see if you can turn up photos of her close relatives. If she's had foals before, see if you can track them down. If after that, you still think she's a candidate for breeding, then start looking for stallions who might improve what needs improving and won't be a detriment.

    With a horse with no performance record, breeding should be a very, very well thought out and planned gamble and only done after serious and deep consideration. It's much less of a gamble if you plan to keep the foal for yourself.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  4. #4
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    My horses have Scapa Flow in them and my chestnut grandma was Scapa Flow's twin. Can't remember what her qualifications were - Blue hen, I think.



  5. #5

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    The 1998 What a Wonder Viney pointed out doesn't have Scapa Flow in her pedigree? But if it is her --

    On the dam side, Angle Light is an interesting horse in this pedigree -- he only raced 14 times, but beat both Sham and Secretariat in the Wood Memorial! I knew I had heard that name before somewhere. He also stood at Flag is Up Farm, which I believe is Monty Robert's farm?

    Why Wanpun was used for breeding at all is something of a mystery, too. He didn't win much, although he's got Never Bend and Turn To on the sire and dam sides, a couple of tough horses there, and his sire and grandsire were good racehorses. This is a sprinting line, not always what I would think of as sporthorse material.

    This mare's pedigree is filled with some quirky individuals, I think. Whoever bred her must have been rolling the dice on getting a race horse.

    She might make a great sporthorse dam, who knows. Definitely not the usual subjects in her bloodlines. The emphasis on sprinting in the sire line might give me pause, though.



  6. #6
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    Default Interesting word - quirky?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwill View Post
    The 1998 What a Wonder Viney pointed out doesn't have Scapa Flow in her pedigree? But if it is her --

    On the dam side, Angle Light is an interesting horse in this pedigree -- he only raced 14 times, but beat both Sham and Secretariat in the Wood Memorial! I knew I had heard that name before somewhere. He also stood at Flag is Up Farm, which I believe is Monty Robert's farm?

    Why Wanpun was used for breeding at all is something of a mystery, too. He didn't win much, although he's got Never Bend and Turn To on the sire and dam sides, a couple of tough horses there, and his sire and grandsire were good racehorses. This is a sprinting line, not always what I would think of as sporthorse material.

    This mare's pedigree is filled with some quirky individuals, I think. Whoever bred her must have been rolling the dice on getting a race horse.

    She might make a great sporthorse dam, who knows. Definitely not the usual subjects in her bloodlines. The emphasis on sprinting in the sire line might give me pause, though.
    Interestingly, she doesn't really look the part of a sprint horse. She's rather classic in my book. I'd like to post a picture but can't figure out how to do that? I'll see if this video link will work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbwVq...&feature=g-upl She has great reach with her hind end, quite good conformation - more rectangular than square, a good frame, nice clean throatlatch. Medium sized but big framed which I like. Good low hocks. I have an eventing friend who was watching her play and thought she had a great event hores gallop (this is with a funky damaged left front). And another friend who breeds dutch horses was rather impressed with her.

    Given the obscurity of the pedigree, I have to go by her type. And no history of foals. Was an event horse, then a trail horse, and god knows what else. History is murky. Great manners, acts like a horse that has had some care.

    If anyone can tell me how to post pictures I'd like to try.



  7. #7

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    After seeing the video, I like her a lot! Seems like a good mare to take a chance on for sport breeding. Doesn't look like a sprinter, you are right!



  8. #8
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    Default TKS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwill View Post
    After seeing the video, I like her a lot! Seems like a good mare to take a chance on for sport breeding. Doesn't look like a sprinter, you are right!
    Thanks - another vote for breeding her -and I haven't bred anything in 10 years! Oh, one other criteria she meets that I learned from a Swede who now buys race horses for shieks - forward sloping femur. Plus a fairly vertical ulna - helps with the shoulder reach. Small lessons learned over the last xxx years! I may have to try to track down more about her little eventing career - she took a notion to jump down a wall I have at one end of my arena - despite the hot tape! I think she was having a flashback!

    I think I'll wait until next spring though and get her as healthy as possible. If I bred her now I could have a July 4 baby - been there, done that, not doing it again!



  9. #9
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    Default backround on my mare What a Wonder

    So I wandered off to another thread about applying Tessio methods to sporthorses- which sent me back to look for a more extended pedigree on my mare - and it turns out that the nine-generation back grandmother that she looks like, Scapa Flow, is in her pedigree not less that SIX times, through Nearco and Pharis - foundations of Tessio's work. Someone mentioned a blue hen mare - not sure if Scapa Flow is actually considered one - but very interesting!



  10. #10
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    Just a brief note. Probably 80% of all modern TBs have Scapa Flow in their pedigrees. She was the dam of Pharos, sire of Nearco; and she was also the dam of Fairway, who was a very good sire. Her daughter Fair Isle was not chopped liver either, but she doesn't seem to have made much impact.

    She is definitely considered a Blue Hen mare, given her modern day influence. She has her own portrait by Anne Peters on TB Heritage here:
    http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/ScapaFlow.html
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  11. #11
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Just a brief note. Probably 80% of all modern TBs have Scapa Flow in their pedigrees. She was the dam of Pharos, sire of Nearco; and she was also the dam of Fairway, who was a very good sire. Her daughter Fair Isle was not chopped liver either, but she doesn't seem to have made much impact.

    She is definitely considered a Blue Hen mare, given her modern day influence. She has her own portrait by Anne Peters on TB Heritage here:
    http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/ScapaFlow.html
    I get that, what is really interesting to me is to see the phenotype and the chestnut color come through in this mare after 9 generations. There doesn't seem to be a chestnut at all in the first 5 generations. I'll be looking for more pictures!



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MLMcFaddenJD View Post
    I get that, what is really interesting to me is to see the phenotype and the chestnut color come through in this mare after 9 generations. There doesn't seem to be a chestnut at all in the first 5 generations. I'll be looking for more pictures!
    Huh? What? This mare?

    What a Wonder

    Her sire was a chestnut. As was her dam. There was no other color she could possibly be.



  13. #13
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    Default Color aspect

    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    Huh? What? This mare?

    What a Wonder

    Her sire was a chestnut. As was her dam. There was no other color she could possibly be.
    Thanks for the additional information. I was using pedigreequery, and it doesn't have her mother's color. I saw all those bays behind the mother and figured she had been a bay as well. In any case, she feels like a good classy mare to me!



  14. #14
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    Type does go through the generations in some incredible ways. I'm thinking of colours: Galinule is supposed to be the common ancestor of all horses who have ermine. The Tetrach was the Spotted Wonder and I'd almost guarantee if you see a young horse changing to grey that has appaloosa spots all over it, that it is descended from The Tetrach. My Scapa Flow mare (that is way back) looked exactly like her from scrolling the pictures; whether it means anything, don't know. Physical traits, personality traits, it's amazing.



  15. #15
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    I agree about type popping up generations later. My old (now dead) TB was a ringer for Pharos.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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