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  1. #1
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  2. #2
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  3. #3
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    We all need to rally round this one!
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  4. #4
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    This is a touchy one for sure..

    When I was "younger" I hunted a few times both in Ohio and Colorado and while it is sooooooooooooo fun, and GREAT outdoor sport, for people who want to "ride out" on horseback...

    Once you see the hounds get one of them (or a coyote in Colorado) it is pretty difficult to vote to let it continue. Its a pretty grusome deal !!!!

    I do understand about the fox population BUT I hope we are a socialized group of people and can find better ways to control animal population than this one.

    The deer population (elk, etc) also needs some controls but we don't let them get torn to shreds by a pack of hounds to keep the numbers down.

    Also, the dogs do not chase and kill foxes (coyote) by nature, they are taught to do it and they are taught to do it with live prey ... the only way to keep the hounds aggressive and active is to let them catch some animal and tear it apart...

    For my vote, I think there is a better way to control the fox!!!

    As for "Fox Hunting"..why do they have to hunt and kill to enjoy a group galloping across beautiful countryside to justify their get together?? Can't they just go out and gallop and jump to their hearts content without it having to be an animal hunt and kill.... and then call it "sport"???

    Besides.... I LOVE FOXES.

    The Cherry Creek region of Denver used to be (in the 40's and 50's) a HUGE fox raising area for fur coats. When they banned the use of their skins for coats the farmers just turned them lose there on the creek banks. Now you can still see foxes of all colors there... blacks, reds, whites, beige, browns, etc..

    They truly are a beautiful animal.

    Before the pot shots start, I understand about them getting into the ranchers chicken pen (I was raised on a cattle ranch with LOTS of chickens AND foxes and coyotes) and the other distruction they can do.

    I just think there is a better way to control the numbers than to let the chasing and ripping them apart be called "sport" for people on horseback .... who wants to watch that anyway????

    http://www.foxpointefarm.com
    http://www.go-sho.org
    [url]http://www.horseshowbiz.com
    [url]http://www.ijumpsports.com



  5. #5
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    Least I did not mention that I am aware that it is "tradition" and a very old way of controling the fox....

    If we lived everything by the old traditions...

    Disagreements used to be settled with a slap on the cheek with a white glove and then the 10 pace duel!!! Someone always died...

    Heaven forbid we use "tradition" to settle the disagreements on this Board sometimes .... eventually there would be no one left to post !!!!

    hahahahahahahaha [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    http://www.foxpointefarm.com
    http://www.go-sho.org
    [url]http://www.horseshowbiz.com
    [url]http://www.ijumpsports.com



  6. #6
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    And after having recently witnessed a huge brouhaha on another (non-COTH) board concerning fox hunting, that's all I'm going to say about it (besides, khobstetter already pretty much covered my views, and in a far better way than I could have [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img] ).
    Equus Keepus Brokus



  7. #7
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Also, the dogs do not chase and kill foxes (coyote) by nature, they are taught to do it and they are taught to do it with live prey ... the only way to keep the hounds aggressive and active is to let them catch some animal and tear it apart...
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Do you really know that little about hounds and hunting?

    **"The cowards won't start and the weak will die along the trail."
    -- Kit Carson**

    *Lord please save me from those trying to save me!*



  8. #8
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I do understand about the fox population BUT I hope we are a socialized group of people and can find better ways to control animal population than this one.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    And that way would be????????/....and who would pay for it??????????

    **"The cowards won't start and the weak will die along the trail."
    -- Kit Carson**

    *Lord please save me from those trying to save me!*



  9. #9
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They truly are a beautiful animal.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So are Lambs, calfs, piglets and chickens to many people.

    **"The cowards won't start and the weak will die along the trail."
    -- Kit Carson**

    *Lord please save me from those trying to save me!*



  10. #10
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    The big picture is many Huntsmen and Terriermen face having to euthanize their hound and terrier packs. And what do you think happens to the horses? Including the livelihood of these servants to the hunts.
    Very few Fox are killed.



  11. #11
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:

    I hope we are a socialized group of people and can find better ways to control animal population than this one.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Already done. The ban on foxhunting in Scotland and the proposed ban in England are a ban on MOUNTED foxhunting only. It is recommended instead that foxes be shot, gassed and trapped. If you think gassing fox dens is a "better way" watch the CNN dog tapes.

    Again, the ban in England is NOT a ban on foxhunting, it is a ban on MOUNTED foxhunting with a pack of hounds only. Many people have this misconception so if you love foxes, you'd better look and see what you're getting instead.



  12. #12
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    Oh brother. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    I'm all for everyone having their own opinion, however this just isnt true:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Also, the dogs do not chase and kill foxes (coyote) by nature, they are taught to do it and they are taught to do it with live prey ... the only way to keep the hounds aggressive and active is to let them catch some animal and tear it apart...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thats the silliest thing i've heard today. Foxhounds are foxhounds! They hunt fox, it is in their nature. They are not 'taught' by letting them catch some animal and tearing it apart.

    I've hunted for 15 years. in that time i've 'heard' of around 8 foxes being killed. 4 hit by cars, 4 dying and sick. Never seen a healthy fox even CLOSE to being caught. and I've never even seen when one of these was caught.

    I love foxes too! Not much prettier in the world in my Humble opinion. I work to ensure the fox population is healthy in my area by feeding wormers etc. I dont like the fact that even a few get killed, but the healthy survive, the weak and diseased die--its life and it ensures ultimate survival.

    "Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
    FairWeather
    CANTER West Virginia



  13. #13
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    You killer you!

    Don't you know that all wild animals find a warm spot in the sun, curl up and go to "sleep" forever when it's time for them to die. Only people kill animals! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    Oh, except for all the ones squashed on the roads.

    **"The cowards won't start and the weak will die along the trail."
    -- Kit Carson**

    *Lord please save me from those trying to save me!*



  14. #14
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    Nov. 19, 2001
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    Northern Virginia, U.S.A.
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    they don't exist because 99.99999% of the time in this country the fox goes to ground! Don't know what the numbers are in England. Like Fairweather, I've known some pretty avid foxhunters in my time that have never been blooded.

    And regarding that "training" of the natural canine prey instinct: that's just plain wrong, people don't "train" the prey instinct into a dog, it's just there.



  15. #15
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin

    The big picture is many Huntsmen and Terriermen face having to euthanize their hound and terrier packs. And what do you think happens to the horses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I have no idea what happens to the horses? But from the sounds of your post, they meet the same fate as those hounds and terriers if they cannot fulfill their duties on a hunt field. Is that really the way it is? If so, IMO, that's no different than euthanizing race horses if/when they can no longer race.

    Pretty sad and tragic if dogs and horses are, indeed, raised and trained such that they have only one purpose in life, and when they cannot fulfill that purpose, they're considered useless and subsequently killed. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]
    Equus Keepus Brokus



  16. #16
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    I recently had the pleasure of a demonstration of the Casanova Hounds by Tommie Lee Jones and staff. The question about killing the fox came up and he said that the hounds are trained to run it to ground. That is the objective, not killing it. The thrill of the sport is the watching the hounds work and the chase. In fact, more and more the term used is fox chasing not hunting.

    "Mooses look into your window at night,
    They look to the left and they look to the right,
    The mooses are smiling they think its a zoo,
    and thats why the mooses like looking at you."



  17. #17
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    just like flashy grey said:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And regarding that "training" of the natural canine prey instinct: that's just plain wrong, people don't "train" the prey instinct into a dog, it's just there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Exactly! Why do you think they only use foxhounds? Otherwise we'd have labrador's or pit bulls out there lolol [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted by Liberty: Pretty sad and tragic if dogs and horses are, indeed, raised and trained such that they have only one purpose in life, and when they cannot fulfill that purpose, they're considered useless and subsequently killed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    He-Hem. Uh, what do you think happens to racehorses? show horses? etc???

    "Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
    FairWeather
    CANTER West Virginia



  18. #18
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    Dec. 29, 1999
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    It's true about US hunts rarely killing the fox. However, in England foxes are routinely killed; the farmers expect it and want it as the foxes are a real problem for them. Foxes are much more plentiful and pestful there. If you read the English papers you will have read about two cases recently of foxes actually entering people's homes in the city, in one case attacking a baby whose mother had to rescue it. Poor baby was hospitalized with fox bites. So, in England foxes are going to be killed. That's just a fact. The ban only bans mounted hunters. Again, foxes will be gassed, shot, and trapped, foxes will be killed in great numbers. FACT.

    I object to having people dictate the HOW and saying you can gas, you can shoot, but you can't kill it with a hound. I don't belong to a hunt but I, like most Americans, REALLY object to someone telling me "I don't like the way you are doing this, so you can do it Way a, b, or c but NOT way d. Why? Because 'I' don't like it and therefore 'you' have to stop."

    THAT's what's happening in Great Britain now.



  19. #19
    rkramedjian Guest

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    In the message khobstetter posted I see so many uneducated opinions as to not know what to address first. But I will start at the source of the problem and see if I can muck my way through.

    >>When I was "younger" I hunted a few times both in Ohio and Colorado and while it is sooooooooooooo fun, and GREAT outdoor sport, for people who want to "ride out" on horseback...<<

    In fox hunting there is a question that divides fox hunters regularly. It is "Do you ride to hunt or hunt to ride?" From the above quote it become readily obvious to the reader that khobstetter is someone who hunts to ride and is focused on the pleasure of riding itself not on the pleasure of hunting. I make this observation because my experience is that people that hunt to ride spend little or no time studying the art of fox hunting, yet profess to be great experts at it. On the converse I see a lot of people that ride to hunt who spend a lot of time reading about and learning about the art of working with hounds and thus are able to speak with at least educated opinion on the topic.

    >>Once you see the hounds get one of them (or a coyote in Colorado) it is pretty difficult to vote to let it continue. Its a pretty grusome deal !!!!<<

    If you have hunted much and you study hunting you know that there is no health coyote that cannot out run a hound. For a pack to actually account for a coyote requires that the coyote be ill, infirm, crippled or incrediblely stupid. Foxes, while not quite as fast as a coyote are also a capable prey and if they are in their home territory are nearly imposable to catch as they will have bolt holes to run into for safety when they get tired. What all skilled foxhunters know is that both fox and coyote enjoy playing the game.

    I can hear the hue and cry that this just can't be, but it is common for none hunters. So I'll tell a story from a hunt in CA. Every morning after feeding the horses at the hunt stable the staff would watch an old female coyote wander through the stable picking up dropped grain. On the mornings of the hunts this same female would come over and sit on the knoll by the stable and watch the hunter tacking up. Once the hunters were mounted she would follow them as they hacked over a quarter of a mile to the kennel. While the huntsman release the hunts that were to hunt that day she would sit patiently in a field across form the kennel waiting in full view of the hunt field. When the huntsman remounted and started the hounds toward her she would be off and lead them on a merry chase for several miles before she lost them. More then once she was then observed to be following the pack of hounds a hundred or so yards behind and appearing quite amused with herself and the stupidity of the hounds.

    >>Also, the dogs do not chase and kill foxes (coyote) by nature, they are taught to do it and they are taught to do it with live prey ... the only way to keep the hounds aggressive and active is to let them catch some animal and tear it apart...<<

    The above quote is one of the clearest underlines in showing just how little khobstetter actually knows about hounds and hound training. Hounds are born with the instinct to hunt and will hunt everything if not trained to focus on approved game. Foxhounds will also hunt dear, rabbit, cats, and all breads of dog if not taught that that is wrong. Huntsmen that take their hounds to fox pens for training do so to try and protect none game animals for the basic instincts of hounds and to refine the hounds ability o identify its intended prey.

    Finally I must speak to khobstetter's notion of gruesome. The alternative methods that will be allowed for the control of foxes in England should a hunting ban be approved are gun, trap and poison. Of them I should think that trap and poison will likely be the methods of choice and both are likely to involve the prolonged and pain filled death for the fox. In trapping there is seldom a clean kill and the animal is left to die from loss of blood in the crush limb, starvation or thirst. Just the though of leaving an animal to die in slow misery upsets me, but the thought that these so call friends of the fox actually advocate an animal having its limbs crushed and then letting it die slowly of thirst, knowing that this form of death is long and extremely pain filled while claming the mantle of a foxes friend and protector is truly something that disgusts me. Then to know that the poisons available will then the poor foxes blood until it bleeds out internally or will cause its liver to explode in its belly, both being very painful and slow ends also disgusts me. Of the three only the gun seems having anything close to a humane ending for the fox and then only in the hands of a skilled marksman, of which there are not that many because of the restrictions in England on guns. Oh and I almost forgot. If hounds actually catch a coyote or fox the preys death is very quick as hounds instinctively will grab it by the neck, which when broken is what actually kills the animal, so the animal is dead quickly and be caparisoned relatively painlessly.

    Before people decide to take on the topic of foxhunting and the way to exterminate it, they truly should remember that it was in fact foxhunters that save the English fox population from extinction with their careful and considered conservation and management. Had it not been for the old Masters of Foxhounds and the cooperation of the surrounding land owning farmers there would not be a single fox in England today. Perhaps foxhunters know a bit more about foxes and fox population management than they are being given credit for.

    Finally, I think it was incredibly ill advised to include deer hunting in this discussion as an argument against foxhunting. I quote, "The deer population (elk, etc) also needs some controls but we don't let them get torn to shreds by a pack of hounds to keep the numbers down." This is indeed an accurate statement, instead we let loose huge packs of unskilled and often drunk humans from major metropolitan areas who flood the countryside like lice and who won't eat what they shoot and who don't care about insuring that they are shooting a deer instead of a cow or another hunter or someone�s dog, cat, etc... and who all to often hit what they are shooting at but don't kill it and lack the ability to actually track it down and insure that it is put out of its misery. All they are there for is a trophy that they can hang on their wall at home as proof that they are a mighty hunter and that they know how to kill. Some trade off.

    Thanks for reading my post, sorry that it was so long but this is indeed a "Tough subject".

    Ronald E. Kramedjian



  20. #20
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rkramedjian:
    Finally, I think it was incredibly ill advised to include deer hunting in this discussion as an argument against foxhunting. I quote, "The deer population (elk, etc) also needs some controls but we don't let them get torn to shreds by a pack of hounds to keep the numbers down." This is indeed an accurate statement, instead we let loose huge packs of unskilled and often drunk humans from major metropolitan areas who flood the countryside like lice and who won't eat what they shoot and who don't care about insuring that they are shooting a deer instead of a cow or another hunter or someone?s dog, cat, etc... and who all to often hit what they are shooting at but don't kill it and lack the ability to actually track it down and insure that it is put out of its misery. All they are there for is a trophy that they can hang on their wall at home as proof that they are a mighty hunter and that they know how to kill. Some trade off.

    Thanks for reading my post, sorry that it was so long but this is indeed a "Tough subject".

    Ronald E. Kramedjian<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    My, my, my.....this is where the foxhunters shoot themselves in the foot sometimes....BOY do you sound elitest!! AND that is the major rift in the British Foxhunters v. the working class city dwellers. It's a class issue. You can kill the foxes, just not on horseback.....how classist is that? But I'm afraid the British Foxhunters have been arrogant time and time again. I think they handled the whole thing all wrong. Of course arent' I armchair quarterbacking!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    "Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will."
    - Martin Luther King, Jr.
    The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde



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