The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2008
    Location
    Windsor SC till Aug
    Posts
    1,410

    Default Driving to riding... Anyone get hard mouths?

    OK. I'm not sure it's the driving that caused it, so i'm just trying to pick apart our training and see if i can retrace steps and reverse this somehow...

    But my little grey welsh pony... I've had her since mid Oct. I started out riding her, and though her nose was in the air, she would go soft and easy. I then started her doing a lot of ground work in prep for driving. We had issues with the tongue over the bit, and in the snaffle she would DRAG me along and hang on my hands. She's not a snaffle fan. So i bought her a little Glory Liverpool, in which she loves. She will sometimes still put her tongue over the bit when i ask for a canter while long lining, but i've kinda pin-pointed that to weakness in her hind end, which is getting a lot stronger and the tongue issue is going away, i rarely see it anymore.

    Well lately i've been doing more riding. We know she hates the snaffle, so i picked up a little low port kimberwick, not that i thought she needed the curb, but i wanted the mouthpiece. She doesnt like a straight mullen, she needs some kind of tongue relief and she's got a narrow jaw with fleshy lips, which i think is why she doesnt like the snaffle, i think it just pinches in the wrong places or doesnt lay how she needs it to. This is a curved D ring single joint snaffle and i've tried a french link loose ring on her, but it was a little too big, so i'm not sure if she didnt like it or of it was just a size issue.

    Anyway, she started out really happy with the kimberwick for about a week. Now she is LAYING on my hands and rushing and pulling me around and i cant get her to quiet and soften. I went back to the snaffle and it's 10x's worse. I feel like i'm hauling on her mouth the entire ride, and i'm usually have very soft hands, so this is killing me. I've tried throwing away the reins, letting her find where to put her face and get over it, but then we are FLYING around, she wont listen to my seat or legs, and i get drug everywhere. I do not have an enclosed arena, just an 8 acre field or so that we ride in.

    Saddle seems to fit fine, but i've tried 3 others, all which appear to fit her well.

    If i put her back in her glory liverpool and do a ground work day, she's soft and lovely again...

    I've ordered her a herm springer aurigan french link in her size, see if it lays better and helps her get a little softer. She loves the metal of the Glory, has dripping foamy lips and i have to hose off her legs when we are done! But i ride, and she's dry as a bone.

    My vet is working with me on some hormonal issues i've had with her and she's starting on a calming/mare supplement as soon as it gets here, i know that's a big issue when she's in heat, but she's now out and last night's ride was just

    I praise the heck out of her when she's good and she goes really well off voice on the ground, so i tell her easy and use our same ground driving cues... Just a no go.

    Does anyone else have this issue with their driving horses? I'm thinking that since the ground work puts so much more pressure on their mouths from the heavier lines that maybe she's seeking that kind of pressure when i ride her? But it almost seems if i hold her together, she just goes faster, almost like a OTTB trained to go faster into your pull.

    I'm still working with the broomsticks on the harness for our ground work due to her goosey shaft issue, she starts out jumpy every time, she'll settle after 5-10min or so. But i dont know if she's ever going to get to a point to drive her, so it may be a long process. If we dont drive though, and she acts like this when i try to ride her... I dont know what else to do with her!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 27, 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,112

    Default

    I don't have that particular issue and I go back and forth between driving and riding my ponies all the time. I drive in a Glory Liverpool and I ride in snaffles. One pony gets a curb bit for trail riding, not because he has a hard mouth but because he dives for grass in a snaffle. He does dressage and jumping ring work in the snaffle.

    Have you tried riding your pony in the Glory Liverpool? Not that I recommend riding with that bit but I think it might tell you if the problem is indeed with the bit or something else. She perhaps has a powerful preference for that unique arched mouthpiece. If that's true and you want to pursue riding her in a snaffle then I'd say you need to find the (elusive) Glory baucher snaffle bit. Actually the bit is not elusive but finding one at a good (cheap) price is elusive. I'm on the hunt myself in my spare time because I'm thinking the above-mentioned grass-snatcher would go well under saddle in that bit. His brother goes well under saddle in a French link and has a beautifully responsive mouth. And is not a grass-snatcher.

    So, my short answer to your question based on my experience is no, driving a horse does not cause a 'hard mouth.'

    I think your problem is a little more complex than that and you're going to have to keep trying different things until you find the solution to this particular pony. I'd start with an experiment in riding her with the Glory Liverpool and proceed from there. Good luck!



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2008
    Location
    Windsor SC till Aug
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    Yeah... I dont want to try the liverpool riding... Because the Glory maker wont make me a baucher in 4 1/4". I've already asked, and begged. He can only make that size in a fixed cheek liverpool, not a swivel, i think the thickness of the mouth piece doesnt lend itself to having a hole big enough in the ends for the baucher cheeks, or the swivel liverpool or butterfly. Thus he screws the cheek of the liverpool shank into the ends of the mouthpiece making it fixed.

    I have a feeling she would really like that as a riding bit... But since i know it's not a possibility, i'm SOL. I've searched for a 4 1/4" arch mouth butterfly bit, and thought i could grind off the lower "ring" of the shank... But i havent found that yet either, and i'm not sure with it not having the angle if it would be as loved, or would she like the metal...

    I dont have any hard mouth issue with my cob mare that did both riding/driving for a while either. But wondered if it's not always the case or something.

    I agree, it's likely a deeper issue, i just dont know what the heck it is. She doesnt seem to have any back/neck pain upon palpation. Over the winter i had an equine massage lady in the barn who would go over her and she never found an issue in her back, just some tension in the back end, which we figure was weakness. She had NO muscle when i got her. Now she's got a rock hard butt/stifle/gaskin, she's looking awesome.

    Sigh.

    I can take her out in the woods and not have any of these issues... Yet i walk her anywhere on my property and she's rushing and pulling on me.

    I have never been one to say a harsher bit is the answer, always that it's a trainer issue... So i'm not gonna slap a twisted wire snaffle on her or anything, i just dont know what else to try to get her to soften up and relax.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug. 27, 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,112

    Default

    OK, I understand what you're saying but I think you might still get some useful info from riding her in the Glory Liverpool. You might not be able to duplicate that mouthpiece but with all the available rein attachments on the Liverpool you might at least get a clue as to whether she needs the curb action or not without having to swap out bits several times. It's a thought anyway.

    I'm a big believer in using the bit that works. I'm not hung up on snaffles and if I need more bit I go to it. A snaffle is not necessarily the mildest bit and in bad hands it can be terribly harsh. By the same token a leverage bit in good hands can be a pony's dream come true. But I know you know all that.

    I know people here have touted the butterfly bits but my own experience with it has been that those big loopy rings permit too much forward rotation in the bit. I found it to be less stable in the pony's mouth than I wanted. And in fact I had one of the most life-and-limb threatening bolts in harness that I've experienced to date when the pony was in a butterfly french link with the reins on the lower ring. He shifted into high gear and I had nothing. The bit rotated forward (and yes it was correctly fitted to the pony). Perhaps it would have been more stable with reins on the upper ring but I'll never know as that bit went on eBay the next day. Luckily my ponies are into energy conservation (theirs) and he didn't run too far but we were on the shoulder of a busy road and it was skeery. (the full story is that some yahoo on a motorcycle pulled up behind and spooked the pony on purpose).

    Might she like one of the so called ported snaffles with the half-moon center link? I used one of those initially when starting my boys under saddle, on the theory that it sort of matched the feeling of the low-port Kimberwicks that they had already been started in harness with. Or maybe one of the 'correction' snaffles with an upward center (I'm thinking of the Herm Sprenger correction snaffle). I have no experience with that bit myself but I've considered it before and been put off by the cost. Have you tried something bitless to rule out bits altogether (for riding I mean)?

    If my ponies didn't have such big fat mouths and your pony didn't have such a dainty one I'd be happy to send you some of my bit collection to try. Between raising my two Haflingers from birth and training both to ride and drive, I have just about everything that's ever been made, gathering dust on my tackroom wall



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2008
    Location
    Windsor SC till Aug
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    I'm getting ready to head out and ride her, and i'll throw on her liverpool and see what i get. I'm curious now. lol

    I hear you, i have everything in 4.5-5"!!!! But just a few in her little dinky size. I did pick up a pelham in her size on the 75% off rack at the tack store the other day, but i havent tried that. Maybe that would be the step to try after the liverpool today. I was thinking about maybe one of those ported snaffles too.

    Will give an update after i get the ponies worked today.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 16, 2003
    Location
    MI USA
    Posts
    9,033

    Default

    This is from my own knowledge, no "professional studies" done on this. RAyers did explain HOW it happens in an excellent post when we said that copper mouth parts in bits were not acceptable anymore. Using the copper and "sweet iron" rusty metals is not a true showing of the horse "working" their bit.

    Copper and heavily copper based mixes of metals, make a horse slobber from the reaction to the metal. This is NOT a good reaction, it is a CHEMICAL reaction to the copper causing the excess saliva.

    So the horse WILL have lots of foam, but is NOT TRULY going softly in their mouth, jaw working, relaxed in those bits. These would include the Glory, Agurian metal of Sprenger bits, some others with mixed metals, "sweet iron" used rusted, in the various mouthpieces.

    I would point out that bfz said a different, non-Glory bit, left the mouth totally dry as her comparison. To me, that points at the equine who is not using themselves well, not relaxed, not actually working the bit, so they don't get "lipstick" without the chemical reaction to the Glory bit metal.

    We have a couple horses who may or may not "go well" at times. Besides the actual lugging, slow responses, no BEND, you can see the truth by the lipstick! They are not using themselves thru their entire bodies. Only one side of the mouth has ANY lipstick! Dry side is the side they are not using, not responding well on. We have found various actual reasons at times, other times "they just don't want to bend or give, today". OK, everyone has an off day, so you cut them slack. But if problem continues, then you look for reasons, training holes, sore body, and so on. Then you can deal with the issue, get equine back to being a happy worker, wearing TRUE lipstick on their whole mouth.

    Heck if I wanted false foam, I would just put some loose salt on their tongue, get the soap going! Doesn't fix the problem, but everyone looking THINKS my horse is working their jaw!

    I USED to be a big believer in the use of the copper and iron for getting the foamy look and giving me a responsive horse. This was before I understood the REASONS it happened, and I went out to apologise to the Old Mare for making her wear them before. Now I understand that kind of reaction to the copper is giving me false results, horse probably is not working jaw the way I really want. I don't use any of the copper mouth bits, copper rollers, copper inlays on any of our bits. Iron bits used are CLEAN, no rust on them. I wouldn't chew rust myself, not going to use it on my horses, in spite of all the BNT recommends given. If the iron bit is going to work for this horse, it WILL WORK CLEAN of rust. My copper-added bits, all hang on the wall now. Iron bits are all polished, no rust, hanging on the wall too. Does make a nice display!

    Sorry bfz, sounds like she has an issue of some sort. Driving work doesn't make them heavy or hard mouthed.

    Is she sore backed at all, when running your hands down along her spine?



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2008
    Location
    Windsor SC till Aug
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    Houston, sadly, we have a winner.... After a few weeks of getting pulled around, my pony was slow, soft, with a lovely little lope in her glory liverpool...

    Now what the heck am I gonna do! I think it's a combo of things, I think she likes the fixed cheek, the stability of it. And that mouthpiece fits her mouth so well.

    Maybe I can have Glory make me one without the long shank? Just the round ring of it? I only use that top rein position on it... A future in dressage is not her calling in life, but I think I could get away with that bit in the welsh hunter classes? Maybe....



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2008
    Location
    Windsor SC till Aug
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    I fully understand the metals creating false foam. I still use some copper/sweet iron bits because it's got the mouthpiece my horse likes/goes in best.

    However, false foam aside, the feel of the horse in your hands is going to be rather telling if the horse is heavy, tense, locking the jaw when the muscles pop out, etc... So if I get soft giving responses in a copper bit, I'll take it!

    There is no soreness showing in her back. I do ride with sheepskin and thin lines to reduce whatever shock I'm giving her. She was formerly weak in her stifle area, swapping hind leads often, tongue over the bit. Those issues have mostly disappeared. I'm actually getting pretty upward transitions with shoulders lifting and some "jump" to them.

    The teeth were done in Jan.

    She could have a chiropractic issue that needs sorted, I haven't looked into that yet. But today's ride was so nice I nearly cried. I think we both actually enjoyed it. All because I put her in her Liverpool. Nothing else was different.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 27, 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,112

    Default

    Well, it's not sad, it's great news that you have the issue isolated! And terrific news that you have yourself such a wonderful pony. The rest of it is just mechanics...and money.

    I'm not even going to touch the above posts about the evils of the metal alloy in the Glory bits. We've been down that road in this forum a number of times over the years. I'll just say that it flies in the face of the hundreds (thousands?) of people who use the Glory bits with great success on their horses and ponies. It sure flies in the face of a certain pair of Haflingers that I know very well who are happy little clams in their Glory bits. And I'll leave it at that.

    Call the Glory folks and see what they can do for you. And best wishes.





    Quote Originally Posted by butlerfamilyzoo View Post
    Houston, sadly, we have a winner.... After a few weeks of getting pulled around, my pony was slow, soft, with a lovely little lope in her glory liverpool...

    Now what the heck am I gonna do! I think it's a combo of things, I think she likes the fixed cheek, the stability of it. And that mouthpiece fits her mouth so well.

    Maybe I can have Glory make me one without the long shank? Just the round ring of it? I only use that top rein position on it... A future in dressage is not her calling in life, but I think I could get away with that bit in the welsh hunter classes? Maybe....



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 16, 2003
    Location
    MI USA
    Posts
    9,033

    Default

    Not trying to start a fight. And equines will ABSOLUTELY go well in some device, saddle, rigging that everyone says is evil!

    I have always found the Glory mouthpiece very intriging, looks like it would make a lot of animals (already has if you ask owners!) very happy to work in. Just couldn't get myself past the mixed copper metal mouth it is made of. That is ME, not a problem with other folks. Again, no absolutes with equines, in ANY area relating to them. Equines will make liars out of you, whatever side of the fence you choose regarding something to do with them.

    I just brought metal up to consider, because the resulting foam can be such a trick by the horse, who isn't really working correctly. Go with what works for you, just know as much about the details as you can in making your choices with a horse.

    Glad to hear she is still going well in her Glory bit, even ridden. If you wanted to use it ridden to show, you could cut the cheek pieces off even below the slot under mouthpiece. Would that pass for a Hunter bit in the Welsh ring? We cut off our Liverpool shanks so they are "less" likely to snag or hang up on things in the Multiples. Just an idea for you. If bit MUST not have anything below the ring, you might consult with a welder, to see if he could fill the slot, make the ring totally round for showing. Again, an idea.

    I asked about her back, because that was our first clue of a selenium shortage on one driving mare. Severe deficiency was not letting her ovulate normally, and working her for conditioning, was giving us all kinds of weird movement. Horse was extremely sore over her loins, pressure would put her on her knees. Selenium test would tell you right off, if her numbers were in the "normal" range. Selenium shortage will affect her muscles and ovulation, quite the interesting mineral!

    Lot of places with selenium shortages in the soil. People adding it to feed, may STILL not be giving enough. We were not, though I thought I had everything balanced. Plus you have to feed Vit E with selenium or body doesn't absorb the selenium needed! Now I give EACH horse their dose of Selenium and Vit E on their grain helping. I am not adding it to the grain mix at the Elevator, like back then. Numbers are good on tests, even with the heavy sweating during condtioning work which uses up Selenium in the body faster.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2007
    Location
    Tampa Fl.
    Posts
    4,286

    Default

    just throwing it out there. Is the bit sitting in the same place with the riding bridle as it does with the driving bridle?

    If she is that fussy in her mouth it may just be sitting differently. I have worked with horses that like a riding bit positioned differently than a driving bridle, because of the mechanics of the bit, leverage of the hand, turrets etc.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2008
    Location
    Windsor SC till Aug
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    I leave the driving bit a little loose, started doing that when she was putting her tongue over it. She seems to prefer that. I have fiddled with tightening the riding bit, it makes her show attitude, snakey neck stuff.

    I really dont have "attitude" when i ride her, i just have her clenching the bit and hauling me around no matter what i do or say. No bucking, rearing, or being "ugly" in the way i think of attitude. Just GO GO GO, LEAN, PULL, ugh. But this morning was so darn lovely.

    We supposedly are not in a selenium deficient county, though i have not had her tested. We are dealing with some mare issues. Previously she was having bad cramping, diarrhea, and would get colicy on me. A holistic supplement has fixed that but with spring and a gelding in the field, it's brought on some attitude issues and my vet wants her on a mare/calming supplement so it's been ordered and we'll see if that helps. We slightly suspect ulcers, due to the fact that she stretches out a few times while eating, supposedly the holistic supplement will assist with that issue, and she's on 24x7 grazing, i actually havent seen her stretch while eating for a week or more and crossing fingers maybe we are taking care of some issues. I just cant afford to get her scoped right now.

    So yes, some other issues we've been working on, but she's not ouchy to palpation anywhere.

    I'll try the liverpool tomorrow again to make sure we didnt just have a one day wonder... But i've asked about getting another Glory liverpool with the shank cut off and the little gap filled. We'll see.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct. 30, 2005
    Posts
    68

    Default Sprenger KK Conrad Ultra B Ring

    I found this on ebay a few months ago.

    http://www.doversaddlery.com/hs-kk-c...9/#ProductTabs

    I don't see it available in pony sizes. My 14.1 h Morgan goes in a 5".

    He was quite fussy in a number of different bits. He's not perfect - but much improved in this bit.

    It's supposed to be a good fit for a small palate.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,443

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by butlerfamilyzoo View Post
    I leave the driving bit a little loose, started doing that when she was putting her tongue over it. She seems to prefer that. I have fiddled with tightening the riding bit, it makes her show attitude, snakey neck stuff.

    I really dont have "attitude" when i ride her, i just have her clenching the bit and hauling me around no matter what i do or say. No bucking, rearing, or being "ugly" in the way i think of attitude. Just GO GO GO, LEAN, PULL, ugh. But this morning was so darn lovely.

    We supposedly are not in a selenium deficient county, though i have not had her tested. We are dealing with some mare issues. Previously she was having bad cramping, diarrhea, and would get colicy on me. A holistic supplement has fixed that but with spring and a gelding in the field, it's brought on some attitude issues and my vet wants her on a mare/calming supplement so it's been ordered and we'll see if that helps. We slightly suspect ulcers, due to the fact that she stretches out a few times while eating, supposedly the holistic supplement will assist with that issue, and she's on 24x7 grazing, i actually havent seen her stretch while eating for a week or more and crossing fingers maybe we are taking care of some issues. I just cant afford to get her scoped right now.

    So yes, some other issues we've been working on, but she's not ouchy to palpation anywhere.

    I'll try the liverpool tomorrow again to make sure we didnt just have a one day wonder... But i've asked about getting another Glory liverpool with the shank cut off and the little gap filled. We'll see.
    read what your doing to your horse- iam not surprize shes hauls you around shes running from the pain of the bit banging in her mouth and causing brusies one of my pet hates is when people balme the horse for what they are doing wrong

    ill fitting tack saddle harness or bit can cause severe pain


    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=178116
    read this link- 1st page and then read all the other links



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2008
    Location
    Windsor SC till Aug
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by goeslikestink View Post
    read what your doing to your horse- iam not surprize shes hauls you around shes running from the pain of the bit banging in her mouth and causing brusies one of my pet hates is when people balme the horse for what they are doing wrong

    ill fitting tack saddle harness or bit can cause severe pain


    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=178116
    read this link- 1st page and then read all the other links
    Then you obviously did not read my post and process what was said. She PREFERS her driving bit a little on the loose side. Her riding bit is not "TIGHT" as in causing 2 wrinkles at the lips, i find that as a very flawed way of estimating perfect fit... I go by what the horse likes, meaning, i fiddle around with tightening/loosening one or two holes until i find a spot the horse seems happiest. I would never do something to hurt my horses intentionally. I have the same pet peeve as you...

    So how do you get bumping her mouth and causing bruises if she GOES HAPPIEST with it where it is? It's obviously NOT comfortable tighter if she shakes her head and fights...

    I love the look of the Herm Springer baucher, the problem is the sizes... I can not find these better bits to try in a darn 4 1/4". I did order a herm springer aurigan french link for her, it's the one that is angled to supposedly lay the way the mouth is shaped. To me, that's how the Glory is too, so i'm hoping, maybe the angle will help and the type of metal being similar to the Glory, since i dont know if it's the taste of the metal being an issue... I just dont know. I think it has a big thing to do with the "floppiness" of the snaffle, she likes something much firmer, like the fixed cheek Glory liverpool, the stability of it. A baucher would offer more stability than a snaffle, i just cant find one small enough. Crossing fingers though she'll maybe like that new herm springer snaffle.

    Took her to a fun show yesterday, rode a couple dressage tests and did a cowboy challenge with her. We got 4th in her first test, Intro B, and a 1st in her second test, Intro C. She was VERY tense in first test. I actually think second test was pretty good, she was actually listening in that one. She was one point from getting 2nd in the cowboy challenge, my husband got 6th on my cob gelding, so i get to rub that in that my pony is better than his...

    It was her first official outing, so her brain fried a bit. lol



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr. 15, 2008
    Location
    Orlean, Va
    Posts
    2,060

    Default Try a "Pee-Wee" bit

    After thinking about your mouth issue over night, I think this bit might be worth your effort to try.
    http://www.macsequine.com

    I have a trak mare with a similar mouth. She has a very low palate, thick fleshy lips and thick tongue. She has an arab tiny muzzzle and a 17" browband. It has been extremely hard to find a bit that she is comfortable in. Like your pony, she wants the bit low. This bit was designed for this type of mouth. I do clean it after every use, just like any other piece of tack that I use. She really likes the bit, it doesn't seem to hit any of her sensitive spots. The bit allows me to have light hands and control if we have a deer pop out of the woodwork.
    It does come in pony sizing, and it isn't expensive.
    Intermediate Riding Skills



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2008
    Location
    Windsor SC till Aug
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    Very interesting bit Wicker! I do believe i might have to order this one next pay day!



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2008
    Posts
    4,290

    Default

    Sorry if I missed this, but have you tried any boucher cheeks? I have a collection of bits I'd be happy to send you if you wanted to play, they're a bit big however, 4.75-5 range (the hanging cheeks do seem to run small).

    I have a boucher with the tranz lozenge, a HS B ring, a Glory boucher (which is a true 5), and bit I'm shocked so many horses love, a waterford mouth boucher. I really love how horses seem to LOVE the waterford, only problem is though you can't get them to seek the hand real well in that bit, it really backs them off.... but I have had horses come to want to seek the hand after riding the waterford a few times, so it made a great temporary bit the few times I've used it. All are in augarian or similar, no stainless or vulcanized.

    You're welcomed to try any or all, though likely all are far too large. You could put bit rings on though, no? just to try?
    Being terrible at something is the first step to being truly great at it. Struggle is the evidence of progress.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2008
    Location
    Windsor SC till Aug
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    I cant find a baucher small enough, that's the issue with the bauchers. I cant show in bit guards... So even if she loves it, it leaves me screwed for shows. I have to find something she can go in the welsh/hunter ring with. She LOVES her glory liverpool, but he cant make a baucher that small, nothing with a swivel cheek in her size, only the fixed liverpool.



Similar Threads

  1. Riding and Lessons with Deafness/Hard of Hearing
    By Mad Mare in forum Riding with Health Issues
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Sep. 6, 2015, 10:56 PM
  2. Replies: 218
    Last Post: Dec. 11, 2011, 03:18 AM
  3. Riding on Hard Ground
    By ctab in forum Eventing
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Jan. 12, 2011, 12:49 PM
  4. Driving at a riding barn
    By Misocksgal in forum Driving
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: Jan. 10, 2010, 09:57 PM
  5. Driving vs Riding
    By workinggirl in forum Driving
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: Jun. 17, 2008, 10:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness