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  1. #41
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    Mar. 16, 2000
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    Chatham, NY USA
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    Yes, fernie, there is a tremendous difference between Animal Welfare and Animal Rights Activists, and we should be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Perhaps what we need to do is to actively rally Animal Welfare groups to join with us ('us' being concerned animal owners/lovers) to hold forth against the radicals.
    Hmmmm.....life without any pets..... But, once liberated from the tyranny of slavery, what happens to our horses, dogs, cats... until they become extinct? Of course, that probably won't take long, what with road kill and starvation..... And who pays the repair bills? Have you ever hit a deer??
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast



  2. #42
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    Jul. 17, 2000
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    charlotte, NC USA
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    I dismiss PETA because they don't do a darn thing and funnel dollars away from groups that could do good.
    Currently, in NC, there is a big backlash against Hog Farming. Sierra Club, small farmers and other groups are suing the farmers with the huge lagoons. Where is PETA? Could they not help in this cruelty against animals? Nope, too busy getting publicity by laughing at rich ladies in fur coats, that could care less.
    PETA picks the easy wins. It sure would be hard to force the meat farmers to treat animals with some humanity, but it is easy to stop a small minority from their activity.
    Hobson, I definitely agree that people need to think hard about the abuses our animals suffer, and work for change, but PETA and HSUS are not the answer. Horse people need to monitor each other. I've read so many posts along the lines of "Mr. Big Name Trainer was beating my horse at a clinic - I wanted to speak up, but who am I to say anything?" Speak up. Make it unacceptable. Say things to people. File complaints at shows. Judges, if you see a horse being beaten or lunged to death in the warm-up, don't pin it.
    Some crazy jack$%# from PETA telling me at a show not to hit my horse would make me laugh. However, the same words from a judge, fellow competitor or trainer would likely shame me.
    I believe that the majority love their animals. I can not comprehend a person that abuses. The horses are our friends and companions. I think the mix is a good one. How many of us have lives that would not be as rich without our friend the horse. I cannot accept the acceptance of abuse, nor can I accept the thought of being told I can never ride my friend around a course of jumps again.
    For whatever reason, there are so many people with hatred and abuse in their heart - from the ALFer that bombs the fish and chip shop, to the prestigious trainer with too much pride that resorts to cruelty to make his horse perform. It is up to those of us with love in our hearts to rise above it all and show these people the way.
    In conclusion to all this jumble, go to your library and read Black Beauty ~ think about it. Look at your animals life from the eyes of your animal.
    The witchy witch witch of south central NC.



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
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    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    Some British foxhunting supporters say that the chase leads to a healthy, but controlled fox population, much as deer hunters justify their sport here. Makes some sense that the foxes that are actually caught are the old and/sicker ones that need to prey on chickens and lambs, instead of their "wild" food like mice and rabbits.

    Dogs are prey animals. I have dogs who love to kill rabbits, squirrels, rats, and armadillos. I have to say that I am delighted to see them acting primally. Dogs don't have moral qualms about acting according to their natures. Unless we ridiculously believe that our dogs have consciences and can be taught not to be prey animals, then we have to accept that any dog will kill another animal in dog fashion according to it's breeding.

    And that, it seems to me is what so many animal activists are not able or willing to admit. They impose human standards of morality on beasts. It seems to me that the PETA people have gained a tremendous victory here, not so much for foxes as for the criminalization of basic animal behavior, fostered by humans, that must necessarily lead to the destruction of hundreds, maybe thousands of dogs that are now potential criminals every day of their lives.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 1999
    Location
    Maryland
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    16,625

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    The "Committee of Inquiry into Hunting with Dogs in England and Wales" report is actually online, if anyone is interested in reading it. (It was linked to the Washington Post article.)

    http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/mai...ntingframe.htm



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar. 21, 2000
    Location
    Boston, MA USA
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    180

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    vineyridge - your last post made me think about this...

    If, as PETA would no doubt love, all of these dogs were "freed" into the wild and ignored, what would they do for food? Hunt! Maybe PETA would want these dogs to be "liberated" but muzzled so they can't harm the foxes (or the rodents, or whatever else they may find) until they starved. Oh no wait, but wouldn't that be interfering with their freedom?

    Doesn't make sense to me [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct. 8, 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
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    2,082

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    Radical activists do some important things.

    They make the more moderate, less controversial animal welfare groups acceptable to us. Without PETA around as a comparison, we'd think the animal shelter folks were raving lunatics. (Incidentally, there is plenty of crossover among the two camps.)

    Radicals force issues on us that need to be examined. Radicals activists in any arena rarely see the results they desire in their lifetimes, but they make the rest of us listen and compromise, and society adjusts a little to that agenda. Some groups who were considered dangerous radicals include women suffragists, civil rights activists, and union activists who brought about the 8-hour work day. These folks were reviled even more than you all hate PETA, but I bet we'd all agree that it's GOOD that women can vote, that African Americans have access to jobs and education, and that we (at least the lucky ones) no longer have to work 80 hours a week. Naturally, there are always radicals who are just plain dangerous lunatics. We owe it to a just society to look closely at all their agendas.

    I doubt that any reasonably intelligent scholar specializing in animal rights theory would think that setting all our pets loose would be a practical idea. These are some of the things these philosopers have made me consider, though:

    What if I love jumping more than anything else, but it's making my horse go progressively lame? Is it ethical and moral to bute up the horse and keep going? Which is more important - my desire for pleasure or an animal's well-being?

    Is it right to capture wild animals for use as exotic pets?

    Is it ethical or kind to keep birds in cages? To make dogs live in small cages while their owners are asleep and at work?

    A lot of farm animals suffer terribly. Should I promote factory farming by eating Perdue chicken?

    I love watching races. Is it ethical for me to patronize racetracks where 2-year-olds are ground up and spat out crippled and useless?

    Animal rights theory is provocative and polarizing. I can fully understand why a lot of people feel very threatened by it. I'm just saying that the kind of challenge these folks present forces us to look at important issues we otherwise would not bother much with, and to do some rigorous self-appraisal. In the way that civil rights leaders challenge us to own up to how white folks benefit from institutionalized racism, I think that the animal rights crowd pushes us toward being more honest about how we treat our critters, even when we love them. It's uncomfortable, but then, the ethical act is not always the easiest.



  7. #47
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    Oct. 8, 2000
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    Philadelphia
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    I need to add that I am not a PETA supporter. It should be clear to just about anyone that they've become a sadly boneheaded bunch. My frustration with this topic lies in the identification and lumping together of all radical animal rights activists and theorist/scholars as PETA members. I'm talking about some really challenging and interesting scholarly dialogue and research that's going on...these are not the folks who want you to turn your terriers loose to fend for themselves in the nearest municipal park.



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Aug. 10, 1999
    Location
    Ireland & sometimes the US ;)
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    11,074

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    A Hunting Web site:


    www.huntfacts.com

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It's aimed at non-hunters and seeks to persuade them to find out about the subject before supporting moves to criminalize it. It's in it's infancy. It doesn't seek to compete with anyone else - particularly not the CA. I've found that approaches to MP's and the press are more effective when sent by a 'campaigning organisation' than by an individual - hence my adoption of the campaign name 'Hunting for Tolerance'. I know it's partisan but that's the way it's going to stay. The opposition get quite enough exposure without help from me.

    Any suggestions on good ways to get non-hunter traffic to the site would be much appreciated because I'm a novice at this.

    Peter Presland <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug. 10, 1999
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    Ireland & sometimes the US ;)
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    the extremists in the UK have gotten a bit violent (runnning down horses & riders, bombin cars, etc), so the Countryside Alliance put together a little information packet for information and self-protection.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The Alliance have today published advice for those of us who might feel under threat from animal rights extremists.
    Visit

    http://www.countryside-alliance.org/...10116guide.htm

    Nick Onslow <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 1999
    Location
    Maryland
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    Great points, Hobson.

    Someone mentioned Black Beauty earlier. At that time, I think the groups that we would today consider good animal welfare types were also considered "radical." People then considered horses their personal property to abuse if they felt like it.

    The way we think about animals today can be directly attributed to those people/groups, who made other realize cruelty isn't acceptable.

    I'm not an animal rights supporter, but they do at least make me think very carefully about what I do with my animals and the reasons why.



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jan. 30, 2000
    Posts
    312

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    will it extend to drag queens too?

    What a crock. Expect more on this side of the pond, as this will fuel the "antis" but good!

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    [This message was edited by woodbern on Jan. 18, 2001 at 04:42 PM.]



  12. #52
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    Aug. 10, 1999
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    Ireland & sometimes the US ;)
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    ANY hunting with DOGS - that includes terriers and sight hounds!

    That include RAT HUNTING WITH JACK RUSSELL's !!
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  13. #53
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    Aug. 14, 2000
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    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    Thanks to an FOL'er, I was given a URL for the text of the bill that passed.

    http://www.publications.parliament.u...2/01002--j.htm

    Hunting for rodents with dogs is okay, as long as it takes place above ground.

    Flushing with dogs and retrieving with dogs is okay.

    What I find morally reprehensible and hypocritical is an exception for using dogs to flush game for hunting with birds of prey. If Parliament were truly concerned about animal welfare, that hunting would be banned also. The prey is just as much chased and rended by birds of prey as by dogs, and ita welfare is just as much compromised.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2001
    Location
    Between the River and the Bay
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    i'm sorry but my blood is boiling! i come from a hunting family my dad was a huntsman my grandad is a huntsmen and my mom has a pack of beagles (how the british hunt bunnies) we have a good fiend actually several in england with beagle and foxhunting packs and the thought that they could be banned from their livliehoods is outrageous. sorry my 1st message on this board had to be a rage [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] also did you here about how the pete in the usa took foxhounds out of their kennel @ night and threw them into the middle of the beltway around baltimore! tell me that isn't crazy! so sorry again 4 raging!! : [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]
    Whoah-oh Black Betty BamaLam



  15. #55
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2000
    Location
    Near the Itchetucknee.Ft.White Fl.
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    3,896

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    Thank you for your responses,we are headed into difficult times.
    Unity is the only way to face these problems,as I said in a previous post the M.F.H.A,would be well worth joining.
    Ponyjocke I did'nt hear about that.How long ago did that happen?

    fernie fox
    \"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound\".



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Aug. 10, 1999
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    Ireland & sometimes the US ;)
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    Your grandfather has the BEST pack of hounds in the US!

    Your Mom's beagles used to be pretty good, too...

    (I played guitar at your parents wedding... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] )

    Hmm, I feel old - welcome to the COTHBB!
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jun. 2, 2000
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    217



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2000
    Location
    midwest
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    Thank you for the link, that was refreshing and logical!!!



  19. #59
    Join Date
    Oct. 5, 1999
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    Although I can appreciate the sentiment of your argument, I have to say that I never needed PETA and other extremist groups to make me think twice about animal crualty.

    For me, it is wrong. Period. The lord I worship gave humans dominion of all the creatures of the earth to CARE for them. I have never forgoten that. I have also never forgoten the horrible propaganda proposed by the hypocrites who work for PETA. Or what they do in the name of such b.s.

    I think you have good intentions, but I would like for you to consider that groups like this are what our government calls "terrorists"...and for good reason.

    Remember: some of us have morals either from our religion or just because we do not have abusive personalities. PETA is abusive. They trade one abuse for another in the name of "freedom".



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec. 29, 1999
    Location
    Harrisburg, PA USA
    Posts
    6,818

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    Hobson wrote about AR activisim: "But somebody needs to be struggling to end dog fighting. I haven't heard many others besides AR activists opposing the cruelty...[Easter chicks, black kittens, etc]."

    Just because 'you' haven't heard it doesn't mean thousands of good people haven't done it. Animal welfare groups, dog owners and breeders, concerned people, local communities, MANY people have fought to end all the things you mention. With dogs it's usually the breeder groups and associations who work mightily on these fronts, to educate and to prevent abuse of and mis-use of animals. Just because you are not aware but you see some PETA person on the news doesn't mean PETA made anything good happen. I know first hand about lots of good people who have made terrific positive changes in animal welfare, and comments like "ARs are the only ones" infuriate me. Just because you, by your own admission, have "done virtually nothing to speak out or act against cruelty and abuse..." doesn't mean others non-AR have!!

    Every dog group I know of has been saying for years and years to not give puppies & kittens as unexpected gifts, to not present them Christmas day, etc., etc.



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