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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr. 19, 2000
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    I received this email this morning and thought I'd pass it on to the BB:

    Hi Susan
    This is not law yet. As I understand it has to go to the House of Lords, who will stall it. The feeling is it will be amended to impose strict controls on hunting.

    The measure will not get through parliament this term. There will be a general election in May. The Prime Minister did not vote last night - in fact, he was here in Northern Ireland to push the peace process a little further.

    It is unlikely the Labour Party will put the ban in their manifesto. Consequently, if Labour wins
    the election (and they most likely will) they have to go through all this again. Then there is the added thing, how would that hold up in European Parliament?

    This could go on for years. However I do think in the end hunting will be banned or severely restricted and this will apply to Ireland
    sometime in the future - but it could take years.

    A ban would have to be approved here by the Assembly to become law in Northern Ireland, and by The Irish Parliament in the south. So it not staight forward.

    I hope all is well with you,
    Frank
    ___________________________
    Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2000
    Location
    Near the Itchetucknee.Ft.White Fl.
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    3,896

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    HUNTING.SHOWING.In fact any thing you do with your beloved animal friends,dogs,cats,4H livestock etc.
    I tried posting on the hunting BB,but the response was very minimal.
    Maybe you guys will wake up and realize the problems in UK.do and will
    affect you.Enormous amount of financing for Peta. Humane society and Animal Liberation Front is US funded.Just go and look up their web sites especially ALF.then come back and tell me it is'nt already starting here.They are terrorists and you really do need to wake up.
    Words cannot explain how I feel,to see and hear what is happening to the beautiful wonderful country way of life I grew up in.I am so sad that my children will not have the chance to live that wonderful childhood.
    Whatever happened to FREEDOM.in my England.
    Come on you guys don't let it happen here.
    Thank God I live here in USA.But I fear you are not preparing your selves.

    fernie fox
    \"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound\".



  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug. 10, 1999
    Location
    Ireland & sometimes the US ;)
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    11,073

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    This does NOT impact Scotland or No Ireland - both of whom have their own parliment. It does impact England & Wales.

    The House of Lords are expected to veto this - but...

    Opinion polls on the WWWeb have actually been running FOR foxhunting (either self-regulated or with some regulations) rather than against it - contrary to what is being said.

    There is a MAJOR march on Parliament planned by Countryside Alliance for March 18th - EVERYONE is invited to join. The hope is to have a GREATER turnout than the last significant march of a few years ago. If you can get to London GO! Airfares are actually pretty cheap right now.

    For more information email foxhunters online Foxhunters@topica.com

    If you know any really well respected and prominant celebs who would like to rally with us, please INVITE THEM!

    Thanks.
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec. 12, 2000
    Location
    Washington, D.C., U.S.A.
    Posts
    4,155

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    In response to several questions... (although I'm no authority) I think these are the facts:

    Yes the ban affects Scotland, Wales, and N. Ireland... but not Ireland (Republic of)... that's a separate country

    Yes the House of Lords will try to stall it... but they can't stall it forever, and they have no power to un-write it.

    Yes, because of the parliamentary system, it will probably be at least a year or more before the law takes effect.

    I have never hunted in England, but I understand the "kill" is a much more important (and common) event. Foxhunting here in the U.S., at least with the packs I've hunted with, hardly EVER results in a kill. Maybe our foxes are smarter? (sorry, I know it's not funny... it's just the situation has me so grim). I do think, please inform me if I'm wrong, that perhaps, foxhunters in England are more identified (rightly or wrongly) with the past nobility. I think that England, because of it's history, has a much more strongly divided populace in the "commoners v. royalty" way. So, although I know some foxhunters are just horsemen/farmers... I think it is easier for the average Brit to cast them all in the light of "toffs." Its a sad state. And yes... how about their bloody "football"? Talk about violent!

    I must say, I'm dissapointed in the Brits... usually I find that they are far more down to earth and realistic than Americans.



  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 1999
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    11,621

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    Does anyone know the answer to the drag hunt question?

    If the ban is on hunting fox or other animals with dogs/horses, it should not prohibit the sport of chasing a scent -- not an animal --around the countryside. But it depends on the way the law is written.

    I guess there is a potential problem in that most hounds in England are used to live hunts and will follow a live scent, but can't the masters do something to keep them on the drag?

    As for hunting coyotes, they are much faster than hounds and have great stamina, so they rarely, rarely, ever get caught. I go out once a year or so with our local hunt (coyotes, of course), but only on the guarantee that they've never come close to actually catching anything.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2000
    Location
    charlotte, NC USA
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    4,178

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    I saw some lovely footage on 60 Minutes about "eco-terrorism". They showed this Vegan Animal Rights guy at a animal rights rally. He kept whacking this poor police horse in the knees with a pole holding a banner. So I guess police horses are OK to abuse and beat. Hypocrites. I guess he was too cowardly to hit the officer.
    The witchy witch witch of south central NC.



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec. 29, 1999
    Location
    Harrisburg, PA USA
    Posts
    6,566

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    Drag hunting is not banned.

    Not yet, anyway. Once ARs move on to riding (and they will)expect it. ARs believe owning and/or riding a horse to be cruel.

    Scotland is NOT affected; only England and Wales.

    Under the new law, foxes can still be shot, gassed, trapped. Actually, under the new law, these are now the recommended methods. Nice, huh?

    Drag hunting is not an acceptable alternative to hunters, btw--it's not the same thing.

    PLEASE NOTE: the new law bans hunting with dogs. This means not just the mounted foxhunters with their foxhounds, but the greyhounds after rabbits, and two dogs in the park after a bunny.



  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug. 10, 1999
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    Ireland & sometimes the US ;)
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    11,073

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    The ban includes beagling

    and bassetting

    and coursing

    and terriering (after rats, even!)

    and all the foot foxhunting in the Fells.
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2000
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    10,749

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    Not much to add to the sentitments expressed thus far. The AR folks believed the animals were real in "Mary Poppins" . Someone explain to them that movie was FICTIONAL! If they don't accept that, send them to Kansas, I have a horse that changes colors.....



  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    19,224

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    If all horse people were to boycott travel to England and the purchase of English horse products, it would make a statement about the economic impact of the chase on other than just the immediate farmers.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Mar. 14, 2000
    Location
    WA. The Evergreen State Where The Horses Are Forever Green
    Posts
    17,256

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    That is right.
    If you are suspected of letting your dogs go into any earth after a rabbit or anything, you will be thrown into jail and recieve a sentence worse than a bank robber!
    If you have any animal hairs of the banned animals in your car or the boot of your car, you will be arrested.
    I know of people being arrested for just taking their terriers out for a run across the fields, and suspected of hunting.



  12. #32
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    Jul. 14, 2000
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    midwest
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    Question, what law exist in England, at this time, which prohibits one from hunting terriers, other than tresspassing?



  13. #33
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    I believe that hunting rodents with dogs is still allowed.

    And shooters are also allowed to use dogs to find injured animals.

    This is class legislation aimed at the "rich toffs".

    The ALF/PETA folks are against all ownership of any animals. They want all domesticated animals to become extinct. That's one reason they support vigorous neutering campaigns for dogs and cats. After all, if you neuter all your breeding age stock, you won't have breeding age stock after a while.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  14. #34
    Join Date
    Nov. 30, 2000
    Location
    Kentucky
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    The only thing I can add to what's been said is please everybody, watch your backs! Don't ever allow yourself to become complacent about the rights we enjoy here, because if this can happen in England we are most certainly next on PETA's agenda.

    (Stepping off soapbox now.)



  15. #35
    Join Date
    Oct. 8, 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    2,082

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    I'm uncomfortable with the blanket dismissals of animal rights proponents. Yes, some of the PETA folks are wackos. Yes, many of their actions are ill-conceived and the products of rather dim naive, and misguided thinking. Many are utterly stupid. Many are honorably committed to making life better for animals who can't help themselves.

    A disclaimer: I am not informed enough on the ban in Britain to declaim much about it, but I know that class resentment plays a major role in the issue. PLEASE NOTE BEFORE YOU FLAME THAT I AM NEITHER SUPPORTING NOR OPPOSING THE BAN.

    BUT...I think that animal rights scholars like Peter Singer --love him or hate him -- force us to take a hard, important look at our relationship with animals, and face up to what we humans impose on them, eveything from the injuries we cause horses by riding them to the evil of purposeful abuse. Guess what guys & gals: horse owners are NOT universally kind and loving to their animals! Rescue organizations would not exist if there were no abused and neglected horses. I personally wish the activists would come down harder on show-ring abuses. You know they exist - I've seen them discussed here.

    I'm perplexed at the absence of moderate voices here. It's all "down with animal rights" and "hooray for animal owners." Magnolia is the only person I noticed who acknowledged the cruelty of everyday practices like factory farming.

    I think there is a place for animal rights activism. Before you start flaming, I do NOT think there is a place for idiocy like "liberating" caged mink and the like. But somebody needs to be struggling to end dog fighting. I haven't heard many others besides animal rights activists opposing the cruelty that invariably results when dim-bulb, unprepared parents buy their children helpless chicks for Easter or black kittens for Halloween, just because they're cute. Somebody ought to be questioning the destruction we visit on two-year-old racehorses (and I feel shame that I have not done something constructive about it). Speaking just of the horse industry, we obviously do not police ourselves well enough, since I still hear of hellish "training" methods attached to almost every riding discipline. Since we horse owners and participants in horse sports have yet to stop the myriad abuses, what's wrong with someone else targeting it?

    Maybe it's easy to just say "bad, bad PETA." I'm just not prepared to do the same, because I've done virtually nothing to speak out or act against cruelty and abuse in my own sport. Sorry this is so long, but it's a sore spot for me.



  16. #36
    Join Date
    Oct. 20, 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    14,658

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    and not mentioning or acknowledging the decent and caring animal rescue and humane groups. You are right!

    I think that it is just that this particular topic is such an arrow to the heart of where most sport horse interests originated.
    "If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."



  17. #37
    Join Date
    Nov. 30, 2000
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    Kentucky
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    Hobson, my problem with the animal rights groups is that they themselves don't take a moderate stand. Certainly there are many types of behavior that I, as horse and dog owner and lover, would like to see stopped. But PETA's platform targets the responsible animal owners along with the abusers. They are not looking for an end to abuse, they are looking for an end to animal interaction with humans. Period.

    Their view is not "you shouldn't be racing 2 year olds, they're too young." It's "you shouldn't be racing horses at all. And by the way, you shouldn't be riding them either. Nor should you be breeding them. Nor should you own them, which makes them slaves and takes away their rights as citizens of this planet."

    Until the animal rights groups stop their blanket condemnation of pet ownership of any sort, I will continue my blanket condemnation of them.



  18. #38
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2000
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    Near the Itchetucknee.Ft.White Fl.
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    Please do not confuse '' animal rights activists''whom I mentioned in my earlier posts with Animal Welfare groups.there is no comparison..
    There will always be a need for Animal Welfare groups,they do a wonderful job and I support them wholeheartedly.

    fernie fox
    \"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound\".



  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 1999
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    16,625

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    ... to tell the difference between rights groups and welfare groups. HSUS, generally considered a welfare organization, targeted eventing during the Olympics. (With a story that contained a lot of half-truths... one that would probably make any uninformed animal-loving person think eventing was horrible.)

    If I weren't involved with horses, it might be easier to get drawn into the animal rights crap. But it's pretty obvious to me that a 1,200-pound horse is not a pet. It's meant to live outside, and usually earn its keep in some fashion. Because of that, it's easier for me to understand that a dairy farmer does not think of his cows as pets. It doesn't necessarily mean he treats them inhumanely just because they're not invited into his living room.

    Point is, if you're a pollster and you call up Joe Blow and say "Are you for or against chasing foxes with dogs until the dogs catch them and tear them apart?", you're not going to find too many people who say they support that kind of thing. It's too far outside their realm of reality.

    Honestly, I personally have a hard time with some of this stuff. I would definitely NOT enjoy being there for the kill (however rare) during a foxhunt. I would also never, ever shoot an animal for sport. Hell, I'd have a really hard time shooting an animal even to put it out of its misery. I'm just not into killing things.

    I do, for the most part, support other people's rights to kill things, though. (Hopefully done in as humane a manner as possible, preferably done only when necessary, and definitely only done by those who know what they're doing and aren't guzzling Budweiser at the same time they're loading a rifle.) I'd love to live in a Mary Poppins world where all animals lived in harmony to old age... but as I'm getting older and more jaded, I realize it ain't gonna happen. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    Long, rambling post... sorry!



  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jan. 17, 2001
    Posts
    54

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm sure the fox is killed quickly and in a natural way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I've seen my dogs kill rats...so I'm not assuming that the natural way is so quick! I'd have fewer problems accepting the notion of foxhunting if the hounds were simply muzzled. I've heard that an argument against muzzling is that it is cruel to the hounds...but what about the fox? From any point of view, it is the fox who loses out...it is hard for me to reconcile the death of the hunted as a justifiable sacrifice simply to preserve the lifestyle of the hunter.



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