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  1. #1
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    Default Who reads German? Klaus Martin Rath on Rolkur and Totilas

    Eurodressage posted this link to an article that appeared in a major German newspaper and, apparently, discusses the change in approach to Totilas' training. Unfortunately, my German isn't good enough to figure it out.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/ums...-11736668.html



  2. #2
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    i think this is the most interesting part:

    "Applying the "Rollkur" means a complete reversal of the Kronberger family dressage. Just two years ago had the 27-year-old rider, trainer and his father and his step-mother and co-owner Ann-Kathrin Totilas Linsenhoff condemns hyperflexion harsh."

    also it appears that there were complaints about the work being done.



  3. #3
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    Default

    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.



  4. #4
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    Me : )
    SO, firstly this is great because this is in one the major national daily German papers, not some horsey publication.

    Familie Rath bestreitet nicht, in der Prüfungsvorbereitung neuerdings mit einer Methode zu arbeiten, die als „Rollkur“, „Hyperflexion“ oder „Long, deep and round/LDR“ bekannt ist. Sie baut auf die Unterwerfung eines Pferdes durch extremes Aufrollen des Pferdehalses. Dies setzt das Pferd physisch und psychisch unter Spannung und schränkt sein Gesichtsfeld ein. Fachleute sprechen von erheblichen Folgeschäden. Ohne Aggression erlaubt der Weltverband die „Rollkur“ für weniger als zehn Minuten. Diese Regel wird allerdings von den Verfechtern der klassischen Reiterei abgelehnt.

    The Rath family does not argue that they have recently started using this method called Rollkur, hyperflexion or LDR (NOTE: they say it's all the same!) to prepare for tests. It counts on submitting the horse through extreme rolling in of the horse's neck. This puts the horse under a lot of physical and psychological pressure and limits its field of vision.
    Without aggression the FEI allows it for less than 10 minutes. This rule is argued by proponents of classical riding.


    Klaus Martin Rath räumte am Dienstag gegenüber der F.A.Z. ein, dass „Matthias etwa zehn Minuten lang etwas mehr Kontrolle“ gebraucht habe. Dazu habe er eine „etwas tiefere Einstellung“ praktiziert. Die Bilder zeigen allerdings eine konsequente Anwendung der Hyperflexion, die vom klassischen Ideal, dass die Stirn des Pferdes nicht hinter die Senkrechte kommen soll, extrem abweicht. „Der Hengst steht im Deckeinsatz“, erklärte Rath, „er hat ein stolzes Selbstbewusstsein.“

    Klaus Rath admitted on Tuesday that Matthias "needed a little more control for about 10 min", for that he "needed to ride the horse a little deeper". But the picture show a consistent application of hyperflexion that differs profoundly from the classical ideal not to have the horse behind the vertical. "The stallion is being used for breeding", Rath explained, "he has a proud self esteem."
    "Reite dein Pferd vorwärts und richte es gerade.” Gustav Steinbrecht



  5. #5
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    We need to ge away from this and I think the solution is judges giving more and more score for the less electric animal so they CAN be more relaxed.

    Valegro is an example of a horse that shows tremendous effort without that zapped look and lurch from every leg aid.

    If they dont have to be so zooted to ths point of out of control then they dont need so much submission.

    I think Rath is a little in survival mode with his new stallion which I completely understand, however keying it all down a bit would save everyone the headache rk has become imo.

    We dont need the hind end jerking upward just a nice soft strong lift...

    I dont think for a second this horse has it easier with Rath but )
    Gals riding is uber electric causing now obvious problems.
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsideLeg2OutsideRein View Post

    "The stallion is being used for breeding", Rath explained, "he has a proud self esteem."[/I]
    You don't see Carl Hester riding Uthopia around like that!! Ughh...makes me want to cry when I watch Totilas go....especially looking at the warm up pictures. I would love to someone like Charlotte Dujardin on that horse.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsideLeg2OutsideRein View Post
    Me : )
    SO, firstly this is great because this is in one the major national daily German papers, not some horsey publication.

    Familie Rath bestreitet nicht, in der Prüfungsvorbereitung neuerdings mit einer Methode zu arbeiten, die als „Rollkur“, „Hyperflexion“ oder „Long, deep and round/LDR“ bekannt ist. Sie baut auf die Unterwerfung eines Pferdes durch extremes Aufrollen des Pferdehalses. Dies setzt das Pferd physisch und psychisch unter Spannung und schränkt sein Gesichtsfeld ein. Fachleute sprechen von erheblichen Folgeschäden. Ohne Aggression erlaubt der Weltverband die „Rollkur“ für weniger als zehn Minuten. Diese Regel wird allerdings von den Verfechtern der klassischen Reiterei abgelehnt.

    The Rath family does not argue that they have recently started using this method called Rollkur, hyperflexion or LDR (NOTE: they say it's all the same!) to prepare for tests. It counts on submitting the horse through extreme rolling in of the horse's neck. This puts the horse under a lot of physical and psychological pressure and limits its field of vision.
    Without aggression the FEI allows it for less than 10 minutes. This rule is argued by proponents of classical riding.


    Klaus Martin Rath räumte am Dienstag gegenüber der F.A.Z. ein, dass „Matthias etwa zehn Minuten lang etwas mehr Kontrolle“ gebraucht habe. Dazu habe er eine „etwas tiefere Einstellung“ praktiziert. Die Bilder zeigen allerdings eine konsequente Anwendung der Hyperflexion, die vom klassischen Ideal, dass die Stirn des Pferdes nicht hinter die Senkrechte kommen soll, extrem abweicht. „Der Hengst steht im Deckeinsatz“, erklärte Rath, „er hat ein stolzes Selbstbewusstsein.“

    Klaus Rath admitted on Tuesday that Matthias "needed a little more control for about 10 min", for that he "needed to ride the horse a little deeper". But the picture show a consistent application of hyperflexion that differs profoundly from the classical ideal not to have the horse behind the vertical. "The stallion is being used for breeding", Rath explained, "he has a proud self esteem."
    Thank you :-) Given the somewhat controversial subject matter, I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any possible subtle nuances of language.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by eks View Post
    You don't see Carl Hester riding Uthopia around like that!! Ughh...makes me want to cry when I watch Totilas go....especially looking at the warm up pictures. I would love to someone like Charlotte Dujardin on that horse.
    I wonder how easy it is to retrain a horse used to LDR, to no longer "need" it to warm up/school. As toto is used to that method of schooling, I imagine it would require considerable time to rewrite his warm up routine...time that Rath doesn't really have.

    I also think NOT using LRD would very much change how Toto moves as the muscles/ligaments aren't being prepared in the same way...so then Rath gets slammed for ruining how the horse moves as payment from trying to school in a kinder manner. Really Lose lose for Rath.



  9. #9
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    CHT I've thought the same thing. RK stretches tissues that aren't elastic, they never go back to normal once stretched I wonder if one of the worst consequences of RK is that eventually they need it to get a good stretch.
    I think 20 years from now we will look back and events like this will be the ones that were the twists and turns in Dressage's story. If it were a society the timing is about right for a collapse and rebuild.
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
    chaque pas est fait ensemble



  10. #10
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    Default 20 years ago it was exactly the same

    Watch some training and warm up videos from yesterday and 20 years ago.

    http://tinyurl.com/6mhk4yw



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
    RK stretches tissues that aren't elastic, they never go back to normal once stretched
    Specifically, please, which tissues would these be?



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Specifically, please, which tissues would these be?


    As a gymnast, I can tell you you can stretch all kinds of structures, hyperstretch them even regularly.
    That is part of training that makes them stronger, not weak and limp.

    Doesn't look that he is being hurt, or he would not have been at the top of his athletic game all these years.

    Then, what do I know.



  13. #13
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    Well, here are some definitions that may help.
    tendonsplural of ten·don (Noun)
    Noun:
    A flexible but inelastic cord of strong fibrous collagen tissue attaching a muscle to a bone.
    The hamstring of a quadruped.



    lig·a·ment/ˈligəmənt/
    Noun:
    A short band of tough, flexible, fibrous connective tissue that connects two bones or cartilages or holds together a joint.
    A membranous fold that supports an organ and keeps it in position.


    I know when my horse tweaked his knee and we xrayed it, my vet said due to the tissues effected it could never be as solid as his other knee again because the tissues are like a balloon, once blown up they never shrink back perfectly normal again.
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
    chaque pas est fait ensemble



  14. #14
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    The Nuchal ligament is the one that there is concern about .....



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
    Well, here are some definitions that may help.
    tendonsplural of ten·don (Noun)
    Noun:
    A flexible but inelastic cord of strong fibrous collagen tissue attaching a muscle to a bone.
    The hamstring of a quadruped.



    lig·a·ment/ˈligəmənt/
    Noun:
    A short band of tough, flexible, fibrous connective tissue that connects two bones or cartilages or holds together a joint.
    A membranous fold that supports an organ and keeps it in position.


    I know when my horse tweaked his knee and we xrayed it, my vet said due to the tissues effected it could never be as solid as his other knee again because the tissues are like a balloon, once blown up they never shrink back perfectly normal again.
    You are taking training out of context there, talking about pathology, that can happen due to injuries, not regular training.

    Sure, if the horse is standing in the pasture, it won't overstretch.
    Then, you have known horses get injured in the pasture, running around and hopefully don't quit turning horses out because they can get injured?

    There is a BIG difference there.

    I don't have a dog in this fight, but it doesn't make sense to dismiss something because in the extreme it could maybe be injurious.

    I am from the time that behind the bit was the worst you could have a horse go, where "disengaging" was unthinkable, where the spanish walk was considered disuniting and never to be taught.

    I know now that we have to consider what we do a bit more and not dismiss offhand something others do just because we don't like it or is new/different, when we don't have good reasons for it.

    We are doing just that, you are not saying rollkur is bad, but saying whoever uses it is an abuser, as you imply there, because you don't have your facts straight, I don't think.
    Just getting on a horse's back, or asking for collection is, according to your very narrow definition, hurtful to the horse, to have to carry the rider's weight, to have to carry both weights over it's hocks.

    I say, lets train the way we choose and give others the right to do so, short of real abuse.



  16. #16
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    did you guys see what the bruhaha is all about?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Okxe_21E0



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    did you guys see what the bruhaha is all about?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Okxe_21E0
    Looks like a video made by some with an axe to grind for their five minutes of glory.

    Put them on that horse right there and lets see what they could do.
    I do think the previous rider made the horse look easy, this one may be a bit overmounted.

    If that is rollkur and so objectionable, pfff to all those that want to use that for their agendas.
    Better go tilt at other windmills, I say.



  18. #18
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    Soft tissue is definitely elastic. Ask anyone who does yoga.

    It is certainly possible to go beyond the elastic tolerance of tendons and ligaments by force or trauma. That isn't what is happening in rolkur. There is a lot more to the way Gal rode Totilas than what was going on with the horse's chin. The continued (over) focus on that aspect of the training program is ridiculous.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  19. #19
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    I have a horse who was trained in rollkur until 9 years old. It took 4 years to change his connection to one where I can train with poll up and a longer neck. There were no physical issues that made it impossible, it just takes a long time to rework muscles and a horse's understanding of how you want him to go.

    I am certainly not defending the Raths' use of rollkur (it is a nightmare to ride), but there is no way they are going to spend years on changing Totalis. They are expected (by their entire country and the world, it seems) to make it work NOW! For the gold medal at the OLYMPICS!



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dressagegirl123 View Post
    They are expected (by their entire country and the world, it seems) to make it work NOW! For the gold medal at the OLYMPICS!
    Isn't that one of the reasons they bought him ?
    -Amor vincit omnia-



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