What really bothers me is that kids (especialy guys) my age seem to find it the ultimate put-down to call someone gay. I'm the only one of my friends who seems to NOT have a problem with homosexuality. Little do my guy-friends know, 1 out of every 10 of them will probably end up being gay! But oh well, whatever floats their boat.
I think that if kids my age had more of a chance to be around people who are different from them (either in sexuality, race, age, etc) they would NOT be so condescending (I hope I used that word correctly! Hehe)
What's Rita Mae Brown say? Something along the lines of if sexuality were on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 & 10 being extremely straight and extremely gay, most of the world's population would land right in the 3-7 range. (Actually, she may have said 4-6, but who's counting?) Interesting thought...
co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!
Ccornios - LOVED your friend's viewpoint that riding is an art. How true.
Pwyn/Devildog: I have also noticed the correlation between horses and music - Hey I play the flute too! As well as piano and guitar. Bill Steinkraus was a violinist and I think he said it had something to do with being able to connect the mind and hands in harmony. I have always felt that my ability to play musical instruments has helped me considerably to ride my horse correctly on the flat and in dressage.
and Ann - about the neat thing - you hit the nail on the head!!!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I admit to my strong and sometimes overwhelming urge to be "neat and tidy". My favourite part of showing is getting my horse ready - bathing, clipping, braiding etc. Love all that stuff.
As for other things that go with horses - anyone else out their have a thing for figure skating? I've noticed a lot of riders seem to follow that as well.
My story looking back was quite funny. When I was sixteen, I went out with the hounds on a daily basis. I met this older guy(19 yrs.) out there who was working for the master excercising horses. We hit it off and became good friends(well I had a huge crush on him)and hung out through the summer. I thought I had struck gold, a guy I could date and ride with(and who had a nice car). He asked me out towards the end of the summer, but my father would not allow it since he was an older guy. A few years later he came out and we had a laugh about the whole dating thing. I of course had to inform my dad that he would have been the safest date I ever had, since he was probably more interested in my guy friends than in me.
My best friend/alter ego/soulmate is a guy I dated for a while many years ago. I left for the summer and he came out of the closet. We continued to be best of friends - I even ended up living with him and his partner for a couple months. He had known since puberty that he was "different", finally recognizing how/why - and was so miserable inside his skin. When he came out, his self came out - and became a much more content person. You need to be content with yourself before you can be of any value to anyone else....
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HAC: My story looking back was quite funny. When I was sixteen, I went out with the hounds on a daily basis. I met this older guy(19 yrs.) out there who was working for the master excercising horses. We hit it off and became good friends(well I had a huge crush on him)and hung out through the summer. I thought I had struck gold, a guy I could date and ride with(and who had a nice car). He asked me out towards the end of the summer, but my father would not allow it since he was an older guy. A few years later he came out and we had a laugh about the whole dating thing. I of course had to inform my dad that he would have been the safest date I ever had, since he was probably more interested in my guy friends than in me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
HAC - It is funny you say that - this is the same reason why my parents never minded sending me away to shows when I was a teenager - heck - no one there was going to hit on me!
My friend's husband is a trainer and is straight and he is NOT interested in the finer details of riding such as grooming, braiding... But, on the other hand, he can shoe his own horses. Not to say his horses arent clean or are unprofessional looking, but that is his wife's detail. Also, his fashion sense is horrible but it is no matter to him.(wife helps out here again) When students complain that his oh so untrendy garb is embarrassing, he shrugs. He is totally into the riding, teaching, training and barn maintenance. Many people that have come to him from gay trainers find him to be competant but missing on the "finer" skills of comunication.
He is certainly NOT into music, art, theater, books... and dancing - forget about it. Funny thing, no rhythm on the floor, quiet still, rhythmical courses on the hunters and jumpers.
Wonder why some of these stereotypes fit (not to say they all do) Must be how we, as a society, come up with them.
BTW, Jair, I also play the piano (minored in music as an undergrad--for love, not talent: I really suck, but I've never enjoyed a subject more, no matter how embarassing it was during performances. I never got a grade in my minor higher than a C-, except in Music Appreciation). So I guess the real question is: Are you any good?
LOL ! Am I any good? Hahaha. Sorry, my mind is in the gutter. That just struck me as funny considering this topic
Seriously though, Pwynn, I am a fairly good pianist, not brilliant, but I went through all the grades with B+ and the occasional A as well as winning the odd recital/competition. I didn't like competing though because for me its all about the enjoyment of playing the music. I love to play and to my ear it sounds pretty good (my partner though thinks I'm brilliant [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] )
I play the guitar mostly by ear - took basic lessons but mostly just fool around with contemporary stuff like Great Big Sea, Barenaked Ladies etc. I doubt I'm any good, but love to do it.
I have some questions, now that this topic seems to be better accepted. Since Ive not had very many close or open relationships with gay men/women - I have often wondered about some things, but have never had the chance to ask.
Especially considering my science background, I have varying theories about the origen of homosexuality and the resulting public reactions through history.
I hope that my ignorance on the subject isnt offensive, but my questions (to anyone that might know) are:
When does a person realize that they are homosexual - specifically and how long after til a person comes out? (I realize this varies)
After coming out, what is the reaction by the family? friends?
Do you, gay or non, feel homosexuality is a choice or genetically determined - or both?
In what way(s) do you most feel society's intolerance?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
Pwyn/Devildog: I have also noticed the correlation between horses and music - Hey I play the flute too! As well as piano and guitar. Bill Steinkraus was a violinist and I think he said it had something to do with being able to connect the mind and hands in harmony. I have always felt that my ability to play musical instruments has helped me considerably to ride my horse correctly on the flat and in dressage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe because rhythem is so important to both music and riding? Often, riders are good dancers, because they allow their body to follow the music much as they follow the horse's stride or jump.
This is a good discussion and I'm glad to see it handled so well. Riding has been a part of my life since I was 8, and amongst the side effects of countless hours at the barn and weekends at shows was that I had gay friends and mentors before I knew what sexuality or homosexuality even were...and so I've never cared, except on occasion to be furious and helpless when I see good friends being by a world that can be mercilessly cruel.
Ben & Me~~I know exactly what you mean about adolescent guys thinking that the greatest insult of all involves calling someone gay. I've never gotten it--my friends and I are constantly reminding people (even those who don't want to hear it!) about how remarkably ridiculus it is to use the term like that--we've started more than our fair share of gender wars [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Personally, the thought that different sexualities were "weird" never crossed my mind--even when I was a small child living in Oakland, CA, when my parents would talk about one my mom's good friends--a gay man--and his partner, I never even wondered why he didn't have a wife/girlfriend, etc. Just never phased me. Now that I'm living in a much more conservative, close-minded, "good ole' boy" type area, I really am noticing people's reactions to the idea of different sexualities. Even some of my friends who I would see as very liberal are completely opposed to the idea! (Although, I shouldn't be shocked to find out that people are less open-minded than me, I must be the ultimate California girl with a politically-correct mind, I censor almost everything I say, trying not to offend anyone. I'm such a tree-hugging, pro-choice, whale-saving, recycling nut. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img])
The other reason I responded to this thread again was that I wanted to say how refreshing it is to not see a bunch of horse people as conservative, stuck-up, close-minded bigots; I'm almost amazed by how much everyone here has shown their tolerance on the subject. No one "sounds" like they are just repeating a line either, everyone seems to be telling their honest opinions on it, not just avoiding a flame. I was literally smiling reading these posts, I was so glad to not have to suffer through more people trying to convert others or change minds, it's all very open and accepting.
OK, I'm done for now, I'm sur eI'll be back later with more.
I like your forthright questions Retrophish and I will answer as best I can from my experience, although others will no doubt have different views.
I was around 14 when I realized that I was more interested in my male classmates than the girls. I had lots of crushes etc. on them but didn't really know what to do. Some of my friends say they always new they were different, but that is now how I felt - I have always just been me. But it was definitely NOT a choice, nor was it my family environment that influenced it.
Is it genetic? I don't know. I would imagine it had something to do with it. I have two straight brothers and one straight sister - how come I'm gay and they're not? We weren't raised any differently.
As for coming out - that took me until university when I realized I was "not alone" and started reading some great books with gay characters that just blew me away. It was such a relief. Mind you, I was born in 1973, so by the time I hit 20 in the 90's attitudes towards this sort of thing had changed considerably from what it would have been for someone 10 years older. Compared to many, I don't think I have had a rough time.
My friends' reactions? I was more interested in horses in high school so only really have one girlfriend that I keep in touch with and she said she knew all along anyways. I am still working on my family - didn't tell them until just a few years ago. and the reaction has been mixed. I haven't been condemned or anything like many of my friends who have basically been disowned, but they are trying and I just make sure I don't shove my preference down their throats. They are good people.
Don't know what else to say. Hope I have answered some of what you were wondering about, at least as it pertained to me.
And no, your ignorance is not the least bit offensive. It is very encouraging in fact [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
I think I can understand what you mean about just feeling like you. I use to think when I could get the chance to travel, it would be so amazing and the rest of the world was going to be this great and different wonderland. When the chances finally came, the places were different, but I was still me. I didnt undergo any vast metamorphisis - I was still looking out of the same two eyes, just at different things. Not to say the places werent great, just that I expected them to effect me inside and I dont think that happens. You are who you are.
I think this understanding is why I am very tolerant of the differences in people. Not to say that I like everyone - there are plenty of people that I dont like, but they earn it singularly and not based on an inherent characteristic.
I see friends with kids and I wonder if it would make a difference if they turn out different then they expect. I couldnt imagine loving my neices and nephew any less - no matter what.
Another question: Doesnt it seem like there are some people that choose their sexual orientation? Whether they be gay, but choose to behave hetero and vice versa? I have more trouble coming to terms with this, but Im not sure why. I, speaking for myself, dont think that I could choose to be different then I am and since I cant understand - it must be why it bothers me.
But, Jair, I understand you perfectly and appreciate your candor. Glad you answered because I have always thought you sound like a great guy based on other posts. Plus, love your sense of humor.
I think we should also have in the mix that homosexuality is not the same as a mistaken gender indentity. If you look around the most beautiful fit of either sex may prefer someone equally beautiful and fit. That is the males prefer males that are very masculine. I think the concept of those who have a feminine aspect are just a part of the picture. The same seems to me to be true for those who are female.Then there are those who have a gender problem of indentifying themselves. Males who would have a feminine identity, females with a male identity and then there are all the variations of birth flaws where boys are really girls and vice versa along with some who are both.
Obviously, the pattern of nature is not perfectly limited. We are intellectually limited to believe that there is only one "normal" condition and only one acceptable life style, that does not make it so. I think in history many ancient civilizations were more tolerant and respectful of each other.
We need to all consider that we are limited by our own experiences, preferences and environment to believe that what is right "is right".
Thank you Retrophish [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Have you ever seen "Sex in the City" with Sarah Jessica Parker? They did an great episode awhile ago about "gay-straight" men and "straight-gay" men and how they can't figure it out anymore. It was a hoot!
There was some truth to it though. Sometimes I can't even tell! I need a new gaydar...maybe a Sony this time LOL!
But yes, sometimes there are gay men who live out straight lives. Perhaps because they feel it is "easier" to act/be the way society expects them to be, or perhaps because their internal struggle is so great that they are afraid of the consequences. These men must live in torment. Some, I think are just so confused they don't know what to do so they get married just because they think they should. Others marry to keep up a front - a friend of mine is a partner to a very very wealthy man from a prominant business family who also has a wife and daughter (but lives with my friend). When he goes to a business function, he takes his wife; when he goes on holiday, he takes his partner. Sounds weird, but the four of them (Husband, Wife, Partner and Daughter) have worked it out. Although I think the wife gets the short straw - but kudos to her for sticking it out.
Strangest of all though IMO, are the straight guys who like people to think they're gay. I can't help thinking they are doing it just to get the girl's confidence before "moving in" so to speak. Don't know much about those kind. I have heard the odd comment from lesbians that some women have chosen to have relationships with other women because of terrible experiences with men (abuse, rape etc.) That I can understand.
Hope I'm not being to forthcoming for some. I tend to ramble...
I posted on the original thread but thought you might be interested in this. I have some friends, man and a woman, living together for the past year. Very much ga ga over each other. She is decidedly heterosexual. She has an identical twin who has is an avowed lesbian and has been living with her partner for the past 13 years.
If you are born this way or that, how do you explain it?
First there is nothing that says it is wrong to believe in a literal translation of the Bible. It only becomes wrong when the people who believe that try to impose their ideas on other people.
Just judge from the many ways the same words have been interpreted by so many other people, all well intentioned. Look at the wars that have been fought in the name of the Bible, and the people killed in the name of the Bible.That's what happens when you feel compelled to have everyone believe as you believe. Not because of what it you believe.
Even identical twins can be different. Isn't it true there is frequently a bold one and a shy one, a leader and a follower and lots of other variations. It simply makes sense that what see in other creatures is likely to be a pattern for us too.It isn't a unique situation for the humans alone, but I'll bet it goes all the way back to the Cro-Magnum.
I am still trying to figure out where in the Bible that God says that Homosexuality is a sin. It is mentioned in Leviticus, but one could argue that Leviticus technically can be interpreted as laws(ie man made). The story of Sodom and Gomorrah represents punishment for lacking respect for hospitality and the protection offered by the host. In fact there was a story, I believe the Book of Ruth that has a few refererences regarding a lesbian relationship between the Mother in Law and the daughter in law.