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  1. #1
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Good to go:
    So Erin where are you?? I think enough is enough with this topic...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Oh for heaven's sake! The topic moved away almost immediately from SS to generalities. It would be more appropriate to give this thread a new title but it seems to me there's a worse prejudice in shutting up mention of sexuality . Did you ever think that there are those on the list who are gay who would rejoice in good news about someone else without all the uptight straight people jumping in saying 'no, no, we can't have that here; we shouldn't be talking about this.' That shows fear of the subject in my mind. Anti-gay prejudice in the horseworld or the rest of the world is not conquered by stifling any mention of being gay. We'll be over the prejudice when nobody cares, but we're on the way to getting over it when we can say, yes, I'm gay, or she's gay, or he's gay, and it's received like, oh, okay, no big deal, which is the sense I got from the last thread.

    Anne (who's ex is gay and has found that there is less prejudice in the people who ask a direct question than in those who run around saying don't ask, don't tell). Just my opinion.



  2. #2
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Good to go:
    So Erin where are you?? I think enough is enough with this topic...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Oh for heaven's sake! The topic moved away almost immediately from SS to generalities. It would be more appropriate to give this thread a new title but it seems to me there's a worse prejudice in shutting up mention of sexuality . Did you ever think that there are those on the list who are gay who would rejoice in good news about someone else without all the uptight straight people jumping in saying 'no, no, we can't have that here; we shouldn't be talking about this.' That shows fear of the subject in my mind. Anti-gay prejudice in the horseworld or the rest of the world is not conquered by stifling any mention of being gay. We'll be over the prejudice when nobody cares, but we're on the way to getting over it when we can say, yes, I'm gay, or she's gay, or he's gay, and it's received like, oh, okay, no big deal, which is the sense I got from the last thread.

    Anne (who's ex is gay and has found that there is less prejudice in the people who ask a direct question than in those who run around saying don't ask, don't tell). Just my opinion.



  3. #3
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    ...So I will add my reply here. Well, I live near SF, so I am very tolerant, it's a lifestyle they choose for themselves, and as long as they don't try and force themselves on me, I don't care. I wouldn't want a straight male to force himself upon me, or try and kiss me if I didn't like him (besides, my BF would have a prob with that LOL!) as much as I would want a lesbian to try and kiss me. I have many gay friends, and it doesn't bother me in the least bit, male OR female. I also have a gay cousin and uncle, both in monogomous relationships, and I consider their SO's family. I may not exactly agree with that type of lifestyle, but I will not condemn a person because of their choices. I will judge them for who they are, not who they are attracted to, as I feel it is what is inside that counts. And even though I don't agree with it, I don't come out and say I don't agree with it. If they ask me what I think about them being gay, I will tell them that I don't have a problem with it at all, and that it is there business. Life and friendship is worth more than who kisses who.
    Is minic a rinne bromach gioblach capall cumasach
    An awkward colt often becomes a beautiful horse .



  4. #4
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    Devildog--the world needs a bunch more people like you. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]



  5. #5
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    Thank you very much Anne for starting this - whether or not it goes anywhere doesn't matter. The fact that its been brought up is what counts.

    I actually did post again under the "SS" thread agreeing that this topic of "gay people" and horses is a good one to continue. I am happy to discuss it [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] And am curious about what others think about why there seems to be an association between gay men (and women) and the horse industry. My friends and I have never been able to figure that one out...

    [This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-12-2000).]
    You Strike Me Still



  6. #6
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    AnnFs: If you read my post on the former thread, I never suggested that the topic should not be discussed by whomever cares to discuss it - but I believe that people should be able to make their own choices as to their own names being used - a common courtesy, I would have thought. No, I'm not prejudiced - just trying to be thoughtful of individuals.



  7. #7
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    Thank you to whomever removed the old thread.
    You Strike Me Still



  8. #8
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    I'd like to second that thank you. I refrained from posting on that thread so that it would disappear more quickly. It seemed counterproductive to keep the thread at the top of list when I thought it should be removed immediately.

    Discussing sexuality is one thing, discussing a specific person's sexuality is another. As for this thread- I'm all for it!

    I was exposed to same sex couples at an early age (8 or so) from riding with a man who lived with his partner. My parents never made an issue of it. In retrospect, I realize that this relationship is what solidified the idea that people live together when they love each other in my mind. From that early age on, I knew that love was what made families. It was the common denominator. Gender is unimportant. When a person decides to buy a horse, they look for certain qualities of which gender is not usually one. If I found the perfect horse for me, I can tell you it wouldn't matter a bit if it was a gelding, mare, or stallion. I would buy it. As would all of you. Why it matters so much when people choose other people, I have never been able to understand.



  9. #9
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    Live and let live--and anyone who thinks otherwise, IMO, needs to get a life.

    I dunno, Jair, about the gays and horses thing, and I don't know if the following is relevant, but...

    Has anyone noticed how a lot of horsepeople have a love of music? (At one point, I kept running into horse people who play the flute, just like me.) And there are other things I've found which seems to "go" with horse interests...but for some reason I can't quite think of any right now! Anybody else?

    Oh, in h-j-d-ct (not western): liberalism rather than conservatism. Think so?
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  10. #10
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    Pwynn, I play piano and guitar as well as sing, and my trainer has a gorgeous singing voice an dis teaching herself piano as well. I also know many other equestrians who play instruments. I eventually want to get a harpsicord...
    Is minic a rinne bromach gioblach capall cumasach
    An awkward colt often becomes a beautiful horse .



  11. #11
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    I just don't understand, call me nieve but I could care less what anyone does as consenting adults in there own bedrooms. It doesn't consern me and don't care who you are. If you are nice to me I will be nice back, plain and simple. At one point I believe it was called common curtesy.



  12. #12
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    Many years ago, a good friend and I were bemoaning the fact that there were several very attractive young men in "our world" who would rather sleep with each other than with either of us. This was very distressing. (we were 20 - it WAS distressing)
    Anyway, one evening after a show, we were questioning it again, and Lee's boyfriend happened to be there (so we didn't discuss how distressed we were - just wondering why). Rick didn't know which end of a horse ate, but he looked at us like we were from a different planet and said, "Well, that's easy to figure out." Our turn to give "the look" - he said, "It's so obvious.. riding is an art, but you're dealing with an animal that outweighs you by about 1000 pounds and has a mind of its own. A gay guy has more strength than a woman, but has a woman's soul and finesse. Of course, they're wonderful riders." Well, duh. And this from a construction worker!
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  13. #13
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    I am a student of history and sociology, I don't think we should be so sure that there are only supposed to be two sexes. I think that are many examples during the process of evolution that show there is room for other points of view.

    It appears to me that even in the animal kingdom there are 5 sexes. In history other civilizations have known that and tolerated it. Why in this so called civilized world does anyone care what anyone else does in their bedroom?

    I do care deeply what people do to children whatever their sexual identification. Children need to find themselves and identify themselves and grow to make up their own minds about their pleasure. Gender identity is a complex and difficult thing, it is not so simple as some would like to believe.

    We should not judge, nor can we judge anyone until there is proof that there is only one "right" choice. That's why this kind of a thread can be hurtful and therefore serves no beneficial purpose. We will not convert those who are prejudiced.



  14. #14
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    LOL Carol!! Makes sense to me!!

    But I've got to second JRG... as long as it's 2 consenting adults, not my issue or my business.

    I have many gay men friends and I just love it! Husband loves what they've done with my dress clothes wardrobe!!! (tom girl at heart & would wear barn clothes 24/7 if left to own devices! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ) Now he can take me to his business functions and not be embarrassed because I came in my "good" jeans!! (No it's not really that bad)



  15. #15
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    Why are we so hung up on sexuality in this country anyway? Love is love is love.
    ___________________________
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  16. #16
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    Well said everyone. I too did not weigh in on the other thread, although if I had it would have been to say that if I could go to a clinic with any hunter trainer/rider in the country, SS would certainly be the person I would choose. He's amazing, and I hear only good things about his training methods.

    To add to what Inverness said, I am happy for those who have found love, sometimes mystified at how they do it, and hope that someday I too will find someone I want to be with for good (just broke up with a long-term boyfriend, so am feeling a little sensitive about that issue these days).



  17. #17
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
    Thank you very much Anne for starting this - whether or not it goes anywhere doesn't matter. The fact that its been brought up is what counts.
    [snip]
    And am curious about what others think about why there seems to be an association between gay men (and women) and the horse industry. My friends and I have never been able to figure that one out...
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You're welcome. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] I think the gay association is American; in other countries it's not considered gay to ride h/j at all. We Americans are a pretty prudish bunch when it comes to sexuality.

    In my experience, the gay thing is more associated with hunters because hunters are so detail-oriented - having to look just so, be just so, that obsession with every little detail often does not appeal to young boys. I'm also involved with Pony Club and the boys have much more fun playing polocrosse or eventing; these guys tell me that the spit & polish and obsession with appearance of the hunter ring is BORING. Perhaps the creating of a pretty picture is more appealing to gay guys than to the average adolescent male; perhaps straight adolescent mails are not as advanced and it's harder for them to have the patience and skills to succeed in hunters. Mainly, I think it's really nothing more than an American stereotype that is feeding off itself to the point that boys who may have chosen hunters don't because they're told it's gay, so we see less straight boys in hunters, so that must mean only the gay ones do hunters, and round and round we go.

    I read somewhere that in the USA 95% of English riders are female, and 90% of Western riders are male. The Western riders around here are learning tasks (penning, roping - accomplish a concrete task), while the hunters are learning how to not only get a horse around a course, but to look good doing it. Different end goals: pen the cow, score a polocrosse goal, follow hounds cross-country at speed (doesn't matter how you look - more appealing for awkward adolescent boys who physically mature slower than girls) or you can look good going around a riding ring, where two 13-yr olds, a girl and a boy, will have different physical finesse - she'll most likely be more coordinated at that age while he's getting into the adolescent gawkies big time. I think that's part of the non-appeal of hunters for a lot of boys who want to zoom around and not worry about finesse.



  18. #18
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    But isn't it equally steotypical to state that gay guys are "feminine"? There are masculine homosexual men out there, too, right? Or are you saying that the more "sensitive" ones (and I don't know about that either: I've known at least two guys of that persuasion who were as "sensitive" as a slug) prefer English sports for the same reasons that women do?

    I'd be interested to know the statistics, actually, because I think we are generalizing based on limited personal observation. I suspect the real numbers wouldn't support our speculations.
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  19. #19
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    I too would like to see statistics. I'm not sure that there is any greater ratio of gay to straight in the horse community than in the *real* world. It may be that our perception is skewed because there is a greater openness about sexual orientation?

    On the gay=feminine issue: There's a Gay Rodeo Association, openly gay rodeo participants. Does anyone consider bull-riding a feminine sport (notwithstanding the few women bull riders)?

    Maybe a bit far afield, but I have always wondered why so many straight men seem to feel threatened by the mere presence of gay men.
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  20. #20
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
    But isn't it equally steotypical to state that gay guys are "feminine"? There are masculine homosexual men out there, too, right? Or are you saying that the more "sensitive" ones (and I don't know about that either: I've known at least two guys of that persuasion who were as "sensitive" as a slug) prefer English sports for the same reasons that women do?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hope you don't mean me. I never said gay guys are 'feminine'; I said they're gay guys. Stop thinking that gay equals feminine; it's not true and not only exerts pressure on gays and inhibits straights from acting in honest ways they might act but won't because of the gay stereotype; this is not good. You are of course right that "gay men are feminine and gay women are masculine" is another huge stereotype/misconception. We're caught in our century: we just happen to live in this time/country with these views and sometimes it's hard to transcend them. Hundreds of years ago men wore long, curled hair and bright colors and women rode astride long before the sidesaddle came into fashion....many of us are mentally trapped in our narrow times and can't see before or beyond.

    Sometimes you hear people talking about 'gay-dar' and it's such a hoot; they go on about how they can always tell; meanwhile they don't have a clue that some of the people at the table with them are gay. But they don't 'look' gay--good grief! How ridiculous!

    [This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 07-13-2000).]



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