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  1. #101
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    I thought the young eventers fall at Atlanta was at least in part a fault of poor jump design--railroad ties at the edge of the jump out of the water = wet and slippery footting?



  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    I thought the young eventers fall at Atlanta was at least in part a fault of poor jump design--railroad ties at the edge of the jump out of the water = wet and slippery footting?
    I don't follow eventing very closely. What happened in the fall you refer to?



  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    I don't follow eventing very closely. What happened in the fall you refer to?
    There's a big difference between Jill Henneberg (who had just graduated from young riders and went on to the Olympics) and someone who's been a pro rider their entire adult life and is changing disciplines, IMHO.

    IIRC she made an iffy judgment call at a cross country fence, crashed it, and hit the ground. So she was out after cross country. I don't remember if the rules eliminated her score or if she/the horse couldn't go on-- but basically her score was a scratch, don't recall the fall being anything really unusual or spectacular. Rider error. I was pretty young during Atlanta but that's what I recall.

    For the record, the U.S. got team silver in Atlanta (first eventing team medal in ages) and everyone went on to ride another day- so I don't think it was such an atrocity having a somewhat inexperienced rider (at that level) on the team

    But at the end of the day, it's an entirely different story having a 20ish year old rider on her YR horse going to the olympics as compared to someone who rode jumpers internationally and had been a pro her entire life going to the Olympics in a different discipline on several upper level horses with eventing experience.

    And looky loo... WHAT OTHER DISCIPLINE is gearing up to maybe put a young rider type on the team??!!??
    ~Veronica
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  4. #104
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    It was rider error in the choice of route and lack of experience/judgement in not knowing what would happen when you jump "through" something rather than over it. The lack of experience led to the rider error. The horse had a problem with the shadow, got it wrong and did a head dive over the obstacle, creating a bloody mess by biting her tongue. It doesn't matter how good a jockey you are, if you don't have the experience to call on when making decisions on course (especially when you don't know the horse that well).
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  5. #105
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    I was there in Atlanta and watched that fall. Does Jill still ride? (I dont follow eventing at all)
    Teneriffe Enterprises- NW Indiana
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumoursFollow View Post
    I was there in Atlanta and watched that fall. Does Jill still ride? (I dont follow eventing at all)
    I think Jill is from the Mid-Atlantic area and IIRC she did continue to ride although I don't have a clue what she's doing now.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equibrit View Post
    It was rider error in the choice of route and lack of experience/judgement in not knowing what would happen when you jump "through" something rather than over it. The lack of experience led to the rider error. The horse had a problem with the shadow, got it wrong and did a head dive over the obstacle, creating a bloody mess by biting her tongue. It doesn't matter how good a jockey you are, if you don't have the experience to call on when making decisions on course (especially when you don't know the horse that well).
    But by the flip side of the coin (no pun intended) you can have all the experience in the world on a horse you know well and STILL make rider errors that cause accidents (DC? how many falls has OT had and he's been riding cross country for years?). Experience is valuable NO DOUBT... but it's not the only valuable skill. Nor does it make or break the ride. Inexperienced riders/horses rise to the ocassion. And experienced rides/horses make mistakes.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    But by the flip side of the coin (no pun intended) you can have all the experience in the world on a horse you know well and STILL make rider errors that cause accidents (DC? how many falls has OT had and he's been riding cross country for years?). Experience is valuable NO DOUBT... but it's not the only valuable skill. Nor does it make or break the ride. Inexperienced riders/horses rise to the ocassion. And experienced rides/horses make mistakes.
    I was with you until you said OT..lol. He's kind of referred to as a butcher in some/many eventing circles. I think he's cleaned up his act now, but back when he was falling every other week, he had few horses and needed money. It seemed his goal was to win, not make it around safely, and that caused some poor choices on his part.
    Rhode Islands are red;
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    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :



  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacetrackReject View Post
    I was with you until you said OT..lol. He's kind of referred to as a butcher in some/many eventing circles. I think he's cleaned up his act now, but back when he was falling every other week, he had few horses and needed money. It seemed his goal was to win, not make it around safely, and that caused some poor choices on his part.
    Well, maybe it was just poor choices and he's making better ones now (I have no idea, I don't follow eventing that closely-- but when the air vests came out the guy seemed to be a voluntary test subject at every darn event!)... but it still is an example of the fact that there's more to the equation that just experience. If scrambling for horses/needing money means you don't ride as well... then I think that's a vote in FAVOR of MLM who doesn't seem to have that as an issue but has built a nice book of owners/horses/supporters.

    I mean, I think KOC is talented/experienced as all get out and Mandiba is a nice horse... didn't insulate them from having problems. Experience is great. It's an asset. But it's not the be-all-end-all and it's only part of the package. I think MLM brings a lot to the package, including plenty of cross-discipline experience, that makes her a really interesting choice for the team.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  10. #110
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    (I don'tnot want to derail anymore ...I guess I remember it wrong--I thought the mare was jumping out of the water and her front foot slipped on the wet wood as she stepped/jumped up onto the bank/railroad tie causing her to to a front-facefall. This is why eye witnesses are unrelaible!)

    Agree-that incidence has no relation to MLM who is very seasoned and is from a family of hard-core professionals.



  11. #111
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    Chiming in as a dressage rider who loves to watch and follow eventing and jumping....

    I think this was a completely valid question, although even asking it can certainly get one thrown to the wolves.

    The reaction to a jumper rider seeing the SJ phase of an event is, I think, similar to the reaction of a dressage rider - especially if you've ridden above 3rd/4th level. The dressage in a 4* event is "only" about 4th Level (no tempi changes, no canter pirouettes). And yeah, it's easy to say "Well that doesn't look so hard, I could ride that test with no problem, and my horse wouldn't be inverted, and he'd be more over his back, and less on the forehand, etc., etc"; but then again, my dressage horse certainly wouldn't even HACK OUT next to those XC jumps, let alone JUMP them!

    It really does come down to the difference between a specialist and an all-rounder. Your "typical" Grand Prix dressage horse, Grand Prix jumper, and 4* eventer are very different horses. There have been a few who were able to cross between the sports at the highest level, but they're few and far between. More riders have been able to do it, than horses.

    Just an opinion from the other side of the fence.

    ETA: btw, I've become a BIG fan of Marilyn. I think she showed great maturity and horsemanship on the Rolex XC course.
    In order to think outside the box, one must first know what is in the box.



  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    But by the flip side of the coin (no pun intended) you can have all the experience in the world on a horse you know well and STILL make rider errors that cause accidents (DC? how many falls has OT had and he's been riding cross country for years?). Experience is valuable NO DOUBT... but it's not the only valuable skill. Nor does it make or break the ride. Inexperienced riders/horses rise to the ocassion. And experienced rides/horses make mistakes.
    A half wit with experience is still a half wit. You have to have had experience to be able to call on it in a sticky situation. You are more likely to encounter that situation at ****. At this level the inexperienced are at a disadvantage because their competitors will make an INFORMED decision. Eventing has a way of making you pay for short cuts.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    I think Jill is from the Mid-Atlantic area and IIRC she did continue to ride although I don't have a clue what she's doing now.
    http://nirvanaeventing.com/home.htm
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Well, maybe it was just poor choices and he's making better ones now (I have no idea, I don't follow eventing that closely-- but when the air vests came out the guy seemed to be a voluntary test subject at every darn event!)... but it still is an example of the fact that there's more to the equation that just experience. If scrambling for horses/needing money means you don't ride as well... then I think that's a vote in FAVOR of MLM who doesn't seem to have that as an issue but has built a nice book of owners/horses/supporters.
    Sorry I wasn't more clear. I wasn't saying he was a bad rider because he was poor. I said he made bad decisions because he was trying to win because he needed money. Because he had few horses, he had to keep running those same horses (I believe most of his falls were with the same handful of horses). He also had a drinking problem which he spoke about at the national convention and it also caused him to make choices that were outside of good judgement. He ran the horses hard and as fast as he could and if they were tired, he tried to stuff them over the jumps. You do that enough and your luck runs out.

    Anyway, that's way off-topic, I just wanted to point out that he made "mistakes" that were completely his own doing and I wouldn't lump him into the group you were talking about.

    Mandiba is a nice horse, but a 4 star horse? Don't think so. MLM has nice horses but they aren't confirmed 4 star horses yet. I have no doubt they will become confirmed at the level, she just has a few kinks to work out with SJ and maybe some conditioning.
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :



  15. #115
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    Conversely, I never saw such a distracting mess as Buck Davidson in the dressage. He is blessed to come from a family of masters because his overweight physic, clammoring leg, busy hands, and general pandemonium on a horse does not bring to mind harmony and effortlessness in a dressage ride. I optomistically hoped for better in these top eventers.



  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacetrackReject View Post
    I was with you until you said OT..lol. He's kind of referred to as a butcher in some/many eventing circles. I think he's cleaned up his act now, but back when he was falling every other week, he had few horses and needed money. It seemed his goal was to win, not make it around safely, and that caused some poor choices on his part.
    Agreed. I would never consider OT a good eventer. I dislike him as a person as much as I dislike him as an eventer. He has issues and I can almost say that I like DC better. Almost is the key word. Both are scum to me.

    But yes, agreed!!

    On the point of Buck. ALLIGORY really? He broke his collar bone a couple of weeks back. He is always a bit heavy, but I would not say that it makes him a bad rider. I would like to see your 4* test please and we can compare you two.

    Seriously? It is eventing dressage on two horses that have never been to a 4*. Other riders out there had pretty damn crummy tests. Just because you come from a riding line does not make you the next three time world champion. He is not Bruce, he is his own person and his own rider. Lighten up.
    I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.




  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeventer View Post

    On the point of Buck. ALLIGORY really? He broke his collar bone a couple of weeks back. He is always a bit heavy, but I would not say that it makes him a bad rider. I would like to see your 4* test please and we can compare you two.

    Seriously? It is eventing dressage on two horses that have never been to a 4*. Other riders out there had pretty damn crummy tests. Just because you come from a riding line does not make you the next three time world champion. He is not Bruce, he is his own person and his own rider. Lighten up.
    I will put my hat in the ring any day against this hot mess... fwiw I ride professionally and have shown both Jumpers and Hunters.. my hunter rounds at the 4' open level must be accurate, smooth and impeccably ridden over larger fences than the 4 **** riders at Rolex. I'm not the least bit insecure about the results. Additionally I ride in the Hunter Derbys with solid obstacles and have jumped cross country in Ireland on a few occassions. You ?



  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALLIGORY View Post
    I will put my hat in the ring any day against this hot mess... fwiw I ride professionally and have shown both Jumpers and Hunters.. my hunter rounds at the 4' open level must be accurate, smooth and impeccably ridden over larger fences than the 4 **** riders at Rolex. I'm not the least bit insecure about the results. Additionally I ride in the Hunter Derbys with solid obstacles and have jumped cross country in Ireland on a few occassions. You ?
    Klassy.

    For the record, I've seen both of you ride, and my money is on Buck.



  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by wanderlust View Post
    Klassy.

    For the record, I've seen both of you ride, and my money is on Buck.
    Agreed.

    BTW Allegory your career record does not impress me and I personally don't give two rats. Also I never said that I could ride better then Buck, so my career record does not come into play.Why don't you just get on your high horse and qualify for Rolex next year since you are so adept? It would give Buck a nice laugh.
    I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.




  20. #120
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    I have to chime in on this one. Allegory. Really? As a hunter/jumper rider (amateur only), I respect someone that can ride the hunter derbies at 4'. I cannot do it. But the hunter derbies are NO comparison to Rolex. Those jumps are huge and the skill set required to complete a **** event is on a whole different level than the hunter derbies. You really must be kidding.
    And I have to think if Meredith were a male showjumping rider switching over from the Grand Prix we would not be having the discussion of if it were safe for her to move up so quickly. Just saying.



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