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  1. #61
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    Nancey: organizational charts AND job descriptions AND proposed budgets and salaries.

    Sportponies Unlimited
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  2. #62
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    from the parties involved.

    You might get meaningful financial information from an audit.

    As always, my favorite word.



  3. #63
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    via conference call slated for Mon. at 4:00 p.m. to discuss the actions taken by the USET.

    Interesting that they mention it will be a conference call therefore difficult to open to the public but, media is welcome.

    I certainly hope some of the media does the necessary scrambling to attend the conference call, even on such short notice.



  4. #64
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    At least the AHSA makes the effort to allow the meeting to be open, and invites the media to attend. I take that to be a very good sign.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  5. #65
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    Love those words too Woodbern...Putting all the cards on the table allows us some insite. And IlonaE, you said it right. Don't think there are any clear cut winners. We need real facts.



  6. #66
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    Yes, at least the AHSA is listening and has shown some care about us.

    By the way in Nancy Jaffer's column today she says that what Finn Casperson said was the USET has an easement for 128 acres, which will be signed next week

    Portia does an easement mean anything permanent? Can't the new owners say forget about it you can't stay unless you pay rent or something. It doesn't say they have a lease or for how long the easement will last.



  7. #67
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    An easement? Interesting, and somewhat puzzling. Do you have a link to Nancy's column?

    An easement is essentially a license to use a piece of land owned by someone else for a particular purpose. The most common type are utilities easements by which utility companies have the right to use certain designated areas of land for a use to serve the general public good, such as laying utility cable, or running telephone poles, or laying pipelines, etc. Such easments may be acquired with, and in most circumstances without, the consent of the landowner.

    Private individuals can also acquire easements against the will of the landowner when it is necessary because there is no other alternative. The classic law school example is when your land is surrounded by somebody else's land and there's only one road leading in for access to your property, you can get an easement to use that road. Or if there's a privately owned path that everyone uses and it's the only way to reach a certain public destination, that kind of thing.

    How long an easement lasts depends on what the easement is for and the terms of the grant. An easement can be perpetual for as long as the designated use continues, or it can be temporary.

    In this case, it sounds like a voluntary easement is being granted to continue a certain use (presumably the team preparing for horse sports). Its terms will be defined by the specific agreement rather than by statute or common law principles, so the terms can be basically anything. We would have to see the agreement to know the extent of the grant and the terms of use.

    The reason I say it is somewhat puzzling is that it is an unusual choice for a big piece of land subject to a potentially wide variety of uses, horse related though they may be. A lease would be more typical to can virtually complete control over the property, at least for the lease term. An easement, to me at least, implies non-exclusive use -- meaning that the land will not be reserved exclusively for the use of the team but may be used by the grantor (landowner) for its own purposes. This is just speculation on my part, so take it for what it is worth. I could be entirely wrong.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  8. #68
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    Sorry Portia, when my drive crashed I lost the bookmark for Nany Jaffer's web site for her articles. However, the paper says she can be reached at nancyjaffer@compuserve.com.

    The article says:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>USET Director Bob Standish explained an easement will be signed this week giving the team use of approximately 128 acres that includes the historic stables, Pine Meadow area and North Field.

    "The team is protected no matter what happens," said Casperson, who said he had made an offer himself for the property with which Lucent is involved. He does not think the use of the rest of the acreage will change, no matter who buys it.

    "You can't ignore 36 holes of golf," he pointed out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I wondered Portia, because it seemed to me that such an easement cannot bind the next owner. I know I was involved in a case with adverse possession and we were granted a 99 year easement because we had used it "without" the permission of the owner. From what I remember if they close it for one day a year it prevents any possibility of proving adverse possession. And, as you said that was for use and not possession or any permanent buildings. I think there is another problem because the buildings are probably "historical" and if the land is given to Green Acres with the buildings that surely restricts use.

    We gave up applying for a historical rating just for that reason on our farm, and we haven't signed on for Farmland preservation for the same reason.

    I think there may be some very serious trouble coming on that land.

    I would say as a land owner, that while I might give permission to someone while I own it, it would not continue indefinitely with a new owner unless it was a lease for compensation. At $250,000 an acre land value, who would give away 128 acres for nothing?

    I cannot imagine any circumstances for an easement of let's say 99 years on property that is so very expensive. We granted the previous owner of our farm use of a house and the Middle Barn for a while after purchase but it was renewable every year. They also have a serious problem with the Township which was very reluctant to approve the project in the first place. Neighbors there do not want a high traffic operation. It would destroy the area. I think the USET is standing on a "quicksand pit", they won't be able to run all the fundraisers they need to make it all work.

    Interestingly, we received applications to renew memberships we don't have to join the USET. My daughter got one and she hasn't belonged since she was 17 and that was over 15 years ago. Methinks they are in deep trouble.

    [This message was edited by Snowbird on Jan. 28, 2001 at 11:35 PM.]



  9. #69
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    Here's the link Portia..

    http://www.nj.com/columns/jaffer/

    Very interesting to hear all these different sides of what happened. Thank you Snowbird and Pwynn for doing all you did.

    Sorry can't figure out why the url won't high light, but it does work.

    [This message was edited by Weatherford on Feb. 03, 2001 at 02:09 PM.]



  10. #70
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    Actually the lands at Gladstone that are being used by the USET have a permanent CONSERVATION easement held by the Nature Conservancy of NJ. This information has appeared in several news paper articles. If the USET leaves the Concervancy takes over those parcels and they can never be developed.

    The benefit to the donor is obvious - a huge tax deduction. The sale of Hamilton Farms certainly came with a huge gain to the seller. To offset the tax liability many corporations take advantage of these donations to minimize their tax liability. There is, as far as I remember a 5 year carry forward on sizable donations as well.

    Can't follow the notation above about the problems with Historic designation. Unless your local municipality has some restrictions in law - the NJ & National Register designation actually comes with many benefits. One which our local property owners have welcomed is protection from any governmental improvements such as road widenings, etc. We have all of the hamlets and village in our township on the Registers and are now working on historic farmsteads at the request of the property owners. Another benefit is that any work you do on your buildings comes under the Rehab Building Codes and not BOCA - so they are much less restrictive.



  11. #71
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    It appears from people involved that the papers to conserve the property are not yet filed or signed as of this date. I believe Weatherford knows more about that because she is close to the situation.

    The problem with the historical zone is that you cannot make additions or corrections or changes without a lot of difficulty and applying to the historical committee. All repairs and expansions must be made in comformation of the history codes.

    The loss of private privilege isn't really worth the tax benefits of being designated a Historical site. The Historical Committee can prevent any and all needed expansion or improvements.

    On the conserved land you also cannot change any of the terrain, direction of water flow, driveways etc. Usually, there is an awarenes of wild life and their habitat cannot be disturbed.

    This I think would make it very difficult for the USET to expand it's services and operation to include all the extras of staff and parking as an NGB.

    However, the point is that so far there doesn't appear to be anything in writing, and no contracts that are signed which means that a new owner would be at a very big disadvantage regarding the remaining acres. Without the conservation in contract and approved the new owner may choose not to accept the prohibitions involved for the tax benefits. If it is done after the sale is in place I think it is a very wobbly situation.



  12. #72
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    Here in my part of Virginia, much of the land is in easements. We have several types, conservation, sight to name just two. In all cases, the land, after being put in easements, is LESS valuable. (Cannot subdivide). In this state, once land is in an easement, it stays with the land, no matter how many times it is sold. As it sounds to me, the purpose is the same in New Jersey. Preserve the land. I imagine the laws don't vary THAT much from state to state.



  13. #73
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    The USET has a new item on its site under the SPI page, titled "A Letter From America's Equestrian Athtletes." It is a memo to the USET, AHSA, and "equetrian community" that says the undersigned athletes have read the USET proposal and support it, with an online form to submit for those "who wish to go on record as supporting the USET proposal for the USA equestrian." That's fine, I have no problem with that (although I personally think there should also be an option for people who want to go on record as supporting the AHSA proposal, and I hope the AHSA will provide a similar means of going on record).

    But the title of the posting really annoys me: "A Letter from America's Equestrian Athletes," as though every equestrian athlete in the US has authorized this letter and supports the USET plan. It is signed by Leslie Howard, Chris Kappler, Wash Bishop, Mike Huber, Betsy Steiner, and Guenter Seidel, all of whom are fine athletes who at some point have competed at the international level (though some not in recent years). But do these six people really represent the entire community of American's Equestrian Athletes? Somehow I don't think people like David O'Connor, who was appointed to the SPI by the AHSA and to all appearances supports the AHSA plan, would agree.

    For some reason that just really rubs me the wrong way. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  14. #74
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    at

    http://www.ahsa.org/cgi-bin/forumdis...=100&LastLogin=

    (I was thinking in the Internation Disciplines forum.....)

    that's the only place that I can think of offhand that we could initiate stating our opinions
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  15. #75
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    That board is only open X amount of hours Sgray. Or till the office closes. It's easier to speak out here.



  16. #76
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    wtywmn4 - Portia stated "That's fine, I have no problem with that (although I personally think there should also be an option for people who want to go on record as supporting the AHSA proposal, and I hope the AHSA will provide a similar means of going on record)." and since the Issues and Answers forum is watched and responses are usually rather quick then it is an option to express support. If Jennifer started a topic there then perhaps she could inspire the AHSA to set up a spot for opinions that was universally accessible.
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  17. #77
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    Good point Sgray. That would make it easier for people to support the AHSA's side. Thanks... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]



  18. #78
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    Good idea SGray and wtywmn. I just started such a topic on the AHSA International Disciplines board. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Hopefully they will set up a more formal method of expressing support.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  19. #79
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    Thanks Portia,
    I posted a follow-up to your thread.

    Did you read the Straussburger Editorial? I am sure it was tongue in cheek but what a picture Billie Bob as a negotiator! That's all we need in this stew. Shoot he's made more war than peace.



  20. #80
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    I heard on my grapevine, you know I believe that plants can speak and have feelings!

    There was an emergency meeting of the NHJC Board of Governors before the AHSA Board Meeting.

    Anyone out there know what might have happened?



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