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  1. #81
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    "The idea of a no-medication rule scares me. IMO, it will be the death of the local and "B" rated AHSA show. The cost of a sound animal will skyrocket even if it is not especially talented or fancy. "

    Um, maybe people will learn to manage their horses properly instead of doing so much with them that they need so many meds.

    A basic requirement for a hunter is soundness. You want him to do his job well. Talent and fanciness are icing and separate the men from the boys. A talented and fancy horse that does not stay sound is inferior and should not win.

    If you have someone build you (or sell you) a house, you want one that has a strong, sturdy foundation that will last for many years without having to do constant expensive and labor intensive maintenance and repair. I know so many people that have moved into new or nearly new absolutely gorgeous expensive homes that have never ending plumbing, wet basement, leaky, poor performing heating/ac, foundation shifting houses. I may not live in the biggest, fanciest most eye catching house, but it is structurally sound and will keep me warm and dry for many years to come. (having said this, I'm sure I will have to call someone to come fix something this week!)

    When buying a horse, you look for one that is sound. People complain so much about trying so many expensive and accomplished horses that they love which fail the vet. Heeellllllloooooo!

    The only way to truly level the playing field and let the naturally good horses and horsemen rise to the top is to ban drugs. At this time, the people who are playing fair and truly have the horse's best interest at heart are at an extreme disadvantage. Maybe we won't have those totally calm dead eyed lopey hunter rounds, but I'm sure we'll see some great riding!



  2. #82
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    Loved your analogy Flash. This is so true.



  3. #83
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    Jun. 19, 1999
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    Flash..I agree with most of what you wrote HOWEVER not all horses "flunk the vet"because of over use or abuse..One of the more common reason is OCD or DJD which has little to do with used (abuse) and alot to do with nutrition from birth onward! Horses can be literally "born" with bad xrays! People put WAY to much stock into the vetting proceedure..These people are educated guesser NOT seers! They can only guess what the future holds for any horse and they can tell you what is right now, this minute that the horse was vetted. The horse could be dead ten minutes from now! But that of course is a whole 'nuther thread!
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  4. #84
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    and if people were more cognisant (sp?)when breeding they would know which lines carry it.
    My mares were all x-rayed before ever being broodmares. Navicular, OCD, and DJD are known to be hereditary, and if you can get the information on the stallion and you know your mare, you are in a better position not to foal unsound horses.
    Nutrition is important, that can not be understated, but more attention must be paid to mare and stallion selection when breeding.
    Overuse lends itself toward arthritis, that is a known fact, so does jumping 5 times a week without proper warm-up, so does bad shoeing, etc etc etc, so does standing ina stall, these are multi variable issues.



  5. #85
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    May. 15, 1999
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The only way to truly level the playing field and let the naturally good horses and horsemen rise to the top is to ban drugs. At this time, the people who are playing fair and truly have the horse's best interest at heart are at an extreme disadvantage. Maybe we won't have those totally calm dead eyed lopey hunter rounds, but I'm sure we'll see some great riding!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Therein lies the whole purpose and logic for our competitions.

    I will say that in my 30 years running the "lesser" shows with many...many visits from the drug testers we have only had one case where a positive was found. And, that was at an A Show a long time ago. I guess my exhibitors can't afford those grooms running around with cocaine on their towels or those contaminated $20 bills.

    I can also tell you that after a C/B Show we don't find the parking area littered with discarded needles and syringes. My guess is that since these shows don't have big Prize Money, or the opportunity for people to qualify for the prestigious shows the motivation is not the same.


    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]



  6. #86
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    Apr. 8, 2000
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    Maybe I'm missing the point but, frankly, I fail to see why anyone would object to the judicious use of medications while competing an animal. Note that the operative word here is judicious which is NOT stacking and NOT overdosing.

    I don't buy the concept that administering 1 gram of Bute will buy any exhibitor a competitive advantage. Not every horse showing in the "A" divisions requires the LTD routine. In fact, a good friend of mine shows the "A" divisions (very successfully I might add) and his horses require 15 minutes on the tape at the most.

    Wear and tear is a competitive fact of life. Loss of elasticity and strength is a natural byproduct of aging. Good conformation and management help to extend competitive life but it doesn't extend the life of your cartilage.

    My point on the skyrocketing prices is not a "dis" on the local show horse. But if people are forced to discard or drop down their present mounts they will be looking for a replacement and, regardless of the product, supply and demand dictate the price. And I don't know about you guys but I can't compete with the big guys financially.

    You can make a lame horse sound via a neurectomy but that isn't doing the horse any favors. And it definitely isn't the right thing to do by any stretch of the imagination.

    If I offered everyone on this list a magic elixir that when administered post exercise would improve joint fluid and help maintain cartilage health would you be interested? Would you still be interested if I told you it was Bute? The fact is that the use of NSAIDs such Bute will help improve joint fluid viscosity by decreasing inflammation (a primary culprit in the thinning of joint fluid). NSAIDs are unique in that they specifically target areas of inflammation. And I don't care how well you manage your horse a day of jumping or even riding on the trailer will contribute to inflammation of the joints.

    What about other pharmaceuticals that can help a horse with a condition such as cyproheptadine as a treatment for photic headshaking? Is my friend's nice, sound, young horse actually unsound because she needs cyproheptadine in the summer to help with photic headshaking symptoms? And don't tell me that she has a genetic fault - research pretty much shows that photoc headshaking is NOT genetic.

    Didn't anybody else see the irony last summer when Laura Kraut's Liberty could not be treated for a simple infection because use of systemic antibiotics would cause a violation of the FEI's no medication rule? How is this "helping the horse"?

    As I have stated before, all of the vets I have spoken to hate the no-medication rule. It ties their hands when treating the animal. Not all injuries require a long layup period. But if you institute a no-medication rule you are going to force people to withdraw an animal that is healthy and healed because his urine levels won't be clear for a period of time even though the pharmocological benefit has long since worn off.

    Snowbird, I daresay you don't see the discarded syringes and needles at your local shows because the people either administer the drugs at home or take the syringes home for use another day. I have seen more than one person "shooting up" their horse at a local show.

    I do agree with the AHSA's position on banned substances that serve no therapeutic purpose such as cocaine and Reserpine. Like Snowbird, I don't buy the $20 bill excuse.

    Sheesh!

    Nina (stepping down)



  7. #87
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    May. 17, 2000
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    Very well stated Chrissy!

    As I have said before, I find it a shame that I could show my hunter who has inhalent allergies on AZIUM, but not cyproheptadine [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    I also think people really need to consider exactly what the fine line is between oral/injectable joint supp and NSAIDs really is... because from the body's perspective, there ain't a whole lot of difference...

    As for all/most/majority of the A horses needing to be LTD... given that there are 6 spots available for lunging at WEF and a good LTD takes at least 30 minutes, and there are way more than 1000 horses showing on any given day... do the math... Yup, assuming maximum efficiency, there is only space for 120 horses to LTD in 10 hour period.

    Not everyone who agrees with the current rule believes in a) stacking b) true performance altering drugs such as reserpine or c) stuffing $20 bills down your horse's throat.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  8. #88
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If I offered everyone on this list a magic elixir that when administered post exercise would improve joint fluid and help maintain cartilage health would you be interested? Would you still be interested if I told you it was Bute? The fact is that the use of NSAIDs such Bute will help improve joint fluid viscosity by decreasing inflammation (a primary culprit in the thinning of joint fluid). NSAIDs are unique in that they specifically target areas of inflammation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Could you please give a citation for this, as I have heard the opposite, that NSAIDs relieve inflamation, but actually contribute to cartilage damage.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  9. #89
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    Congratulations. You have said it EXACTLY right.
    Too bad (for the horses in this world) there are so few with such a grasp on reality.
    Reads like DMK is there to.



  10. #90
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    Sorry folks, (flame suit on) it is either black or white. Those wonderful little grey areas we all love to fall back on, ain't cutting it. You either do or you don't. Just because you think your grey area is lighter, won't make it right. The horse can't tell you, "geeeez that stuff you just gave me is making me all crazy iside". We have to rely on vets and pharmacology reports. Many love to use the reference of our over paid sports figures. Well, at least they can speak, well sort of. Our horses can't. Yes, many do need help. But maybe, it is time not to make them show anymore. Using drugs for our own gratification and ego is not what it should be about. Once again, we have every excuse in the book to justify our reason as to do it.

    And please, I am not ranting, as chrissy put it, for the heck of it. I learned this lesson the hard way. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]



  11. #91
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    While I agree fundamentally with Chrissy,et.al. I think you all now realize why anything other than a no tolerance rule is virtually impossible to administer. I think it is a shame if older guys would have to be retired-but how do you draw the line. If you could word a rule that would protect those who really are using bute or whatever with the horses interest in mind vs. those using chemicals attempting to beat the system then you would be a genius. So far I have yet to see one that holds...

    Life is too short to dance with ugly men



  12. #92
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    May. 30, 2000
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    I give my horse Regumate in the spring/summer for the sole purpose of eliminating her monthly crabby, unpredictable mood. Period! If I were showing her I would NOT take her off of it. No one I know has their mare on hormones (Regumate, implants, Depo) because of a hormone imbalance (they probably don't even know if the horse has an imbalance or not). They do it to change the horses temperment.

    I see nothing wrong, immoral, or unfair about that. I do not consider myself or the others to be abusing drugs or breaking rules. I think that would be too exstreme.

    I guess everyone draws the line in a different place. I can sleep at night with a clear concience(sp) that I am causing my horses no harm or being unfair to others. Maybe I am off topic or missing the point here but I think we need to be realistic about it.
    ~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
    www.timberrunponies.com



  13. #93
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    I personally do not even consider Regumate in the same league as Reserpine, ACTH, or overdosing on NSAIDS to fix a horse to show.

    I wouldn't think twice about what you are doing. I don't think that is what is really in debate here.

    Life is too short to dance with ugly men



  14. #94
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    If the horse needs antibiotics or anything else to correct a medical problem, it should be withdrawn from competition until the drug clears the system. Every drug has side effects and you can't ask the horse how it feels. See any drug ads on TV lately? Can those guys talk any faster when listing the multitude of side effects?

    I would guestimate that the vast majority of people posting here compete in the amateur and jr divisions. Is a horse really truly suitable for an amateur or jr rider if it needs LTD or meds that change it's behavior? Are the horses being managed well if they need regular NSAIDs? More pasture time and less road time would probably do the job just as well. But oh, I forgot, it's the points that count!



  15. #95
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    Thank you very much-I couldn't agree more that a little pasture and time off would cure most problems. Oh-and how about training??? Could that help a little-and exposure so that the horse doens't need LYD or meds because it had to be pounded so it was quiet enough for the Jr/Am rider??

    Oh that's right-you can't waste time training or resting when the points are at stake.

    Life is too short to dance with ugly men



  16. #96
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    Around p. 2 or so...! And this is nowhere as well thought out, but the gist was:

    The merits of whether or not it is a good idea to administer NSAID's, among other substances, have little to do with the debate as to whether they should/should not be allowed. The medicine chest has become such an integral part of so many management systems that those who would argue for more traditional methods of keeping horses sound (such as rest, limited showing not to mention sound breeding practices) are for the most part outgunned by those who would argue that those with the vials/packets/tabs of (insert drug of the month here) are really the ones who hold the horse's best interests above all others. If it weren't also that their pocketbooks benefit because (client's name)'s hor$$$e can go to the show ring after all instead of out to the paddock to rest (or retire!), the latter would be far easier to accept as an unbiased (and therefore more valid?) point of view. To argue for zero tolerance has come to be equated with arguing against the interests of "the idustry." So many times the defense of using medication is prefaced with "in our unique circumstances," or "in today's world..." It's turned into a classic conflict between big business vs. the small potatos. The vets are hardly disinterested parties, as evidenced by the effects of pharmecutical sales on thier bank accounts. A "neutral" debate that weighs the pros and cons without bias is absolutely impossible anymore. But the FEI's stance on medications being perfectly clear, perhaps one solution is that we should just give up on policing meds for the "subterranian" divisions (as VHV terms them!) and adopt zero tolerance for all the "regular" divisions--thereby "protecting" all the kind old horses that are needed to care for their novice/limited budget and/or even recreational riders, but at our upper levels adhere to the same zero tolerance standard that competitors in the rest of the world do.

    [This message was edited by JustJump on Mar. 20, 2001 at 07:10 PM.]



  17. #97
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    Excellent point-you said exactly what i was thinking but couldn't organize it properly. I was thinking something in the terms of different rules for the "Senior tour"-so those good ole troopers could spend a few years teaching the less experienced riders.

    Again though the problem is the abuse-the poor horse that should retire but the trainer wants to squeeze one more year out of him-or the owner does if he brings in a lease fee.

    If only a few more people had a conscience then the policing wouldn't be so necessary-unfortuantely there is no way I can think of to have "grey" rules without the effect of the slippery slope in that everything will eventually be tolerated

    Life is too short to dance with ugly men



  18. #98
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    Feb. 15, 2001
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    Regu-mate, Valerian Root, Azium, Tryptophan, Reserpine, B1, Thiamine, Haliperidol and a large number of other drugs are known to be performance enhancing "medications".

    Someone said that they do not consider Regu-mate to be in the same league as Reserpine. If it enhances performance either mentally or physically, why should we separate one from the other?

    DON'T FLAME OUT ON ME! I'm only being the Devil's Advocate here.

    I hate Bute. I think it makes a horse "dull" to your leg and hand. But I will give my horses the "legal and acceptable dosage" of Banamine during a horse show. Why shouldn't I? I take Advil. I drink coffee.

    Regu-mate? Have you ever tried to show a mare while she is in raging heat? I have. It works on stallions too. Believe me Regu-mate "IS" a performance enhancing drug! If it were to become illegal, I would not use it.

    I think some of you are contradicting yourselves. Just because a drug/medication is currently legal does not mean it is not a performance enhancing drug.

    I also have not noticed anyone saying anything about the "legal and acceptable" levels of any medications. Is it wrong to "medicate" as long as you are within the currently acceptable and legal parameters concerning that specific "medication"?

    As for the Madden, Madden, Goldstein issue.

    If you took an over the counter drug to help alleviate your allergy symptoms and then were required to take a drug test for work. And your test came back positive, for say ephedrine, should your employment be terminated? By most of your arguments, it would appear that you should. The fact that it is an over the counter drug, not withstanding.

    I see alot of you dogging Susie Schoelkopf(sp) about the need to learn how to properly medicate our equine partners. People, get a grip!

    I personally would love to see more people educated about the proper and wise use of NSAIDS. It would mean that our horses can have a better quality of competitive life. Of course this goes hand in hand with good horsemanship. (But that needs to be another thread.)

    I challenge each and every one of you, to run 10 miles a day for four days AND NOT INGEST ANY FORM OF DRUG/MEDICATION! This includes caffiene, nicotiene and/or NSAIDS!!!!! (ie, Advil, Aspirin, Tylenol, etc..)



  19. #99
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    here is a simple question - Pretend that you have an older sweet teacher type that is very sound as far as limping goes ,but you know its old and are very careful not to jump too much show too much etc .Let say that you find out that this wonderful creature needs (I cant spell it) cyptohedradine? for cushings or that it needs some sort of medicine for its breathing .You have to take animal off the drug that helps them right??If these tests are so sharp so accurate why can't these animals stay on their meds which help them.I carefully use some Nasaids and appropriately take them off before showing, but I ask you if these tests are really so accurate why can't these tests be used to help our good old guys ?In other words when a test is taken why can't the test tell you its whatever drug and you have filled out a drug form ?I seem to be having a very hard time being clear here but it seems to me that reserpine cannot be justified for any reason but the types of situations I am describing could justify certain uses of certain drugs.
    Brilyntrip



  20. #100
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    Jun. 19, 1999
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    Leaping off the NSAID wagon and back onto the hearings committees decision re those testing positive..I just read the article in the Chronicle and I have to say the D&M committe should be outraged that the hearing committee didnt really stand behind them...they went with the LEAST possible punishment because some of those involved were "the best the business has to offer"...OMG! So if you are good at training and riding then you are automatically morally above reproach?? Get out of town with that reasoning!!!I suggest that those high up on the rung actually have MORE to lose by falling a bit in their production of champions and so their motivation is GREATER than the average "Joe on the street" to PRODUCE! This is an embarrassing black eye to the AHSA once again showing the other 97% of us that it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



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