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  1. #481
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    What I don't understand is why the owner's insurance wouldnt settle it (loss of use).
    Have you ever inquired about purchasing loss of use for any of your own horses?

    It is extremely expensive, and most of the time the way it works is that if you want to pursue the claim the insurance company takes the horse. You get the money, they get the horse to do as they please with.

    Also if your idea of "loss of use" is, "It is no longer sound enough to do GP level," sometimes the insurance company will say, "Well it is still perfectly suitable for a lesson program so what's your point?"

    Plenty of people who inquire about it make the call that the coverage you get is not worth the expense of the premium.



  2. #482
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    Jun. 13, 2001
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    usa
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    Agree with feather river. Would I send a (young) horse to a rider who is not a young horse expert? Never. Would I send a horse to a rider whose horses do not go as I would desire (calm/methodical/etc)? No. Or to people who are really only good jockeys of trained horses versus methodically train them? No. Would I investigate where I am sending a horse, and watch like a hawk for several handlings/rides? Absolutely. EVERYONE should start at the beginning when seeing a new horse, and not assume anything when taking on a young horse imho. Do others want excessive expression/precipitous flexion? Yes, that is clear from earlier training. Those things are personal choices which create sometimes problematic outcomes, and from a place whose site says 'training through GP'.

    In any case, when sending a horse away from home (for a brief period to get ready for testings), it is a good idea to have insurance. Protecting assets, in this case a lovely one. (And loss of use could be as a stallion, although they can be trained to be collected w/o mounting.) I have been in this situation. And needed it when horses were away from personal care/custody/control.

    We can all say this sucks...it does. And there is human responsibility all around. Who will have economic consequences? Likely the case will fail. But the best outcome for all the viewers is to take personal responsibility, to learn to question in terms of training/methodology/reasoning, and not be taken in more by a search for winning than proper training.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  3. #483
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
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    7,539

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    Quote Originally Posted by dudleyc View Post

    I assume you are referring to William's owner? It is very easy, using centerine scores to find the show history of William and his owner. She is a "first level rider".
    centerline scores only can report what has happened in recognized shows. there are plenty of folks who ride much higher than they have ever shown.

    as for the owner and knowing/not knowing how a trainer is with horses..... i think that some folks have forgotten what is was like to not have a excellent education - how easy it is to not know what is really going on etc. heck it took me years to realize that i was not being taught properly, and then it took me more years to find a trainer that was worth while.

    i hope the owner gets some kind of monetary win for this to help defray the costs of medical for poor WIlliam.

    And i can only wish we had some kind of program in the US that would weed out all the abusive , ham fisted maroons so they cant destroy any more horses on someone else's dime. ......



  4. #484
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    Jan. 24, 2000
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    Somewhere in the Midwest
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post

    as for the owner and knowing/not knowing how a trainer is with horses..... i think that some folks have forgotten what is was like to not have a excellent education - how easy it is to not know what is really going on etc. heck it took me years to realize that i was not being taught properly, and then it took me more years to find a trainer that was worth while.



    And i can only wish we had some kind of program in the US that would weed out all the abusive , ham fisted maroons so they cant destroy any more horses on someone else's dime. ......
    I really agree with this. CP has a HUGE name and is marketed and packaged to attract potential clients such as this stallion's owner. Have you ever watched a BNT say or do something that was wrong and had the guts to stand up and question their methods or ideas? Have you ever ridden in a clinic and were screaming in your head because the clinician is full of crap and putting you in danger? I have politely TWICE stopped and communicated what was going on and asked questions...and I was the one that got punished. You simply cannot question the one on the pedestal....but of course I would never ride with these people again...they were both recommended and in all the magazines and acted the part.
    You will be blackballed....the horse world is so political and people continually ignore or refuse to show guts because of the backlash. Yes, it would be great if there was a magical way to require a license or accreditation before calling themselves a trainer or instructor.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #485
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    Oct. 20, 2007
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    Wonderland
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJRider View Post
    Yes, it would be great if there was a magical way to require a license or accreditation before calling themselves a trainer or instructor.
    Having a license wouldn't guarantee a person's behavior when they're on their own; just look at how people drive cars.



  6. #486
    Join Date
    Aug. 17, 2005
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    Several horse properties in the U.S.
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    254

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    Shia1 could very well be one of Parra's working students fro abroad. He has a Japanese rider working for him whose name is similar. Not saying it is, just offering up the possibility.



  7. #487
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    Jan. 13, 2008
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    5,636

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    Posted by NJRider:

    I really agree with this. CP has a HUGE name and is marketed and packaged to attract potential clients such as this stallion's owner. Have you ever watched a BNT say or do something that was wrong and had the guts to stand up and question their methods or ideas? Have you ever ridden in a clinic and were screaming in your head because the clinician is full of crap and putting you in danger? I have politely TWICE stopped and communicated what was going on and asked questions...and I was the one that got punished. You simply cannot question the one on the pedestal....but of course I would never ride with these people again...they were both recommended and in all the magazines and acted the part.
    You will be blackballed....the horse world is so political and people continually ignore or refuse to show guts because of the backlash. Yes, it would be great if there was a magical way to require a license or accreditation before calling themselves a trainer or instructor.
    This is true ^ and I have been trying to figure out if there is a way around it.



  8. #488
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    Jan. 13, 2003
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    I have to say that if you've been in this business for any length of time - you've been schnookered by a Trainer. If you say you've never been screwed - I don't believe you. I'll admit that I trusted more than one who did damage to horses that took YEARS to turn around.

    It's a big country and information didn't move around as quickly as it does in this age of cyber connections. We also have a lot of ex-pats from Europe who arrive with representations of their abilities and experience and it was pretty darn hard to find out the truth about them.

    The horse world has been shamefully supportive of the concept of not wanting to expose those in the sport who are dirty. Many have refused to even admit they've seen abuse in fear of repurcussions.

    Perhaps we now have the ability to document abuse with photo or video by camera or cell phone. I believe a picture is worth a thousand words. Do things sometimes go off the plan during training sessions (especially with youngsters) - yes that can happen. Knowledgeable horse trainers know the best route to working with young horses is to start slowly and build on a solid foundation. They also know that the rapore between the horse and trainer is paramount to establishing TRUST. The process is not just building the physical but most specifically the mental capabilities of each horse, individually based on their abilities.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #489
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    Jun. 21, 2009
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    Hunterdon County NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    What I don't understand is why the owner's insurance wouldnt settle it (loss of use).
    Well..... in discussing this question with someone just recently it was suggested that maybe the insurance co has already paid out so much on previous claims they are not willing to do it again?? Perhaps there is a couple million dollar limit on CP/P-P liability insurance? Maybe it's been exceeded already?



  10. #490
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    Jan. 13, 2003
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    Gorgeous mare and her feet certainly don't look too small to me!
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  11. #491
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    Mar. 13, 2000
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    NJ Rider... concerning getting blackballed b/c you've decided not to do as bidden in a clinic, or a riding lesson? (not clear).

    I mean, how terrible is it to be 'black balled'? Would that result in you not being able to find any trainer to ride with -- they turn you down cold or won't return calls?* The show secretary will turn away your show entry? The judge will give you a lousy score regardless of your ride?

    If that is what you mean (just trying to clarify first), is all of that temporary dismay really worse than helping to reveal a trainer for the sham that he/she is? And to help do your part to get this person out of business and hopefully away from horses? Doesn't that matter more in the end?

    The reason these people can continue in the biz is b/c they have some dope who wanders up to them with stars in eyes instead of discerning vision and hands over his horse -- the one he supposedly loves so much -- all gaga to have the 'wonderful, top training' begin.

    Speaking up is how these things get stopped. We all have to do our part, or we are as guilty as these dangerous trainers (not trying to put it on you -- just pointing out how we are all complicit in the problem or in the solution).



  12. #492
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    Dec. 20, 2009
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    interesting that the Wintermuhle organization was also discussed in connection w/ Furst Fabio, (see post 225) who was supposedly shipped there. Other posts indicate that the horse passed away prior to that event, who knows.

    What a tangled mess; call me naive, but in spite of all the threads and other stuff I've read, I still find it hard to believe that the horse business (beyond just dressage) can be so apparently crooked...
    We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........



  13. #493
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    Jan. 24, 2000
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    Somewhere in the Midwest
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    Had to delete the "news" from Rate My Horse Pro since they do not want anyone posting their items except themselves........



  14. #494
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 1999
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    Concord, California, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by ise@ssl View Post
    I have to say that if you've been in this business for any length of time - you've been schnookered by a Trainer. If you say you've never been screwed - I don't believe you.
    Well, you "won't believe" me, but I've NEVER been snookered by a trainer. *G* I told one I was not interested in the horse she found for me. (Not nastily. Looked at him. Not my type. Declined.) She got pissy for a week or two, then apologized. While I've been happy to look at/pay required commission if a trainer found a horse for me, that only happened once - and the trainer waived the commission because the horse was at a bargain price. Even in 1977 $1,200 for an intermediate level eventing schoolmaster was a bargain (I guess the spots made him cheap *G*). I've always found my own horses and suffered the consequences of my judgment in that respect, for good or for ill.

    On the other part of that: Trainer abuse or bad training, I guess I've either (a) been fortunate; and/or (b) never been afraid to speak up. I was jerked around by a big name eventer at a clinic. Told him off. He apologized and the rest of the clinic went quite nicely. I usually do not put a horse in full training. I take lessons, then if a problem arises, put horse in training long enough for problem to be dealt with. Just can't afford the alternative. When I had a mare with a MAJOR training issue (not an undersaddle problem), my eventing trainer referred me to someone who could handle it. He had her for 10 days, problem fixed, and she was in good shape physically, and nuzzling him affectionately when he brought her back. Took another horse with under saddle issues - a young horse - back to colt starter, and was told, "He probably won't do it with me. Let's work on this together and I will teach you how to deal with it." Works for me.

    I will agree people are easily intimidated/taken in by a big reputation. We all know there are a lot of trainers whose behavior "out behind the barn" is greatly different than their successful public image.



  15. #495
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    Jan. 13, 2003
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    Sandy M - you've missed the point I was making.

    With respect to trainers I wasn't referring to them acting as agents. I was referring to sending horses for training.

    And I have spoken out at clinics and actually in years past left one and forfeited the money because I thought the man was a complete phoney.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  16. #496
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    Mar. 30, 2005
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    93

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    Flame suit on: I sure hope the owners of Van The Man are reading all this stuff with their eyes open & aren't just blindly following along thinking it can't happen to them too.



  17. #497
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    Jan. 13, 2003
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    Here's the link to the article which has the photo of the mare.
    http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/c...y-partner.aspx
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  18. #498
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    Aug. 26, 1999
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    Concord, California, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by ise@ssl View Post
    Sandy M - you've missed the point I was making.

    With respect to trainers I wasn't referring to them acting as agents. I was referring to sending horses for training.

    And I have spoken out at clinics and actually in years past left one and forfeited the money because I thought the man was a complete phoney.
    Ah, sorry. Misunderstood. Still, even on that point, I, personally, do find it hard to believe that one wouldn't check such things out in more detail before sending a young horse, particularly a young stallion that needed to pass his approvals, etc. without thoroughly investigating any potential trainer. I was recommended to a colt starter by someone I trusted, but I still - since the names were on her website - contacted people who had or still had horses in training with the recommended individual before I ever contacted her. I then spoke to her, came and watched her work with other youngsters, etc., before I committed to bringing my youngster to her.

    It is very strange to me that people do things like, in late middle age, go buy a young horse to ride when they've never ridden before, or buy a young horse "for the kid to grow up with," or get a BLM mustang to 'train' because it's cheap, or, alternatively, blithely spend five figures and up for a horse and just hook up with the handiest trainer without any research. They wouldn't buy a car or a computer, or hire a babysitter, without checking them out, but jump right into horse ownership/training, etc. No wonder Parelli makes a mint!
    *icon for shaking head*face palm*etc. LOL



  19. #499
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    Aug. 17, 2005
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    Several horse properties in the U.S.
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    Michael wouldn't take this case on if it didn't have merit. He, Ingrid, and his dad all have/had stellar reputations in their professions both inside and outside of the horse world.



  20. #500
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2003
    Location
    Annapolis, MD
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    842

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    Thanks Rate My Horse Pro...doing the right thing...reporting the facts.



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