[Mardi]

Was there a reason CP was schooling in the DARK in wellington at one of the recent shows this season? Tell me what can you do in the dark that you can't do in the light of day?

Are these riddles ?
Ok, here are my answers.
#1. Was there a reason CP was schooling in the DARK in wellington at one of the recent shows this season?
Yes. The lights were out.

#2. Tell me what can you do in the dark that you can't do in the light of day ?
Ummm....see stars ? (that's the best I could do for that one)

[2tempe]

What a sad situation. All I can say is I am saddened by what goes on at the upper levels of dressage, and the training techniques (among other things) used by most of those at the top of the sport. What they do very well might create those few rare individuals that can win at the top of the sport currently and can handle the physical and emotional stress of it (as ugly as I think much of it is) but it certainly does leave a large wake of screwed up, lame and sometimes dead horses...

No reason to single out dressage; you can say the same about hunter/jumpers, eventers, racing, reining, saddlebreds - any competitive discipline really.

[dressage2012]

Thank you to the person who has provided a better translation of the information about Don Urlik and Joachim Arl.

In het Zuid-Duitse Landshut is het proces tegen de Duitse paardenhandelaar Joachim Arl begonnen.

In the south German landshut the court case agains horse dealer Joachim arl has started

arl wordt ervan beschuldigd tegelijkertijd als koper, verkoper en bemiddelaar te zijn opgetreden

Arl is accused of acting at the same time as buyer, seller and agent

Hij zou hiervoor zijn eigen bedrijven gebruiken die in verschillende landen zijn gevestigd, zoals REL Luxemburg Real Estate (nu omgedoopt in Equestricon SA), Equestricon NV (België) en Equestricon GmbH (Duitsland).

He used his own company's located in different counties like,REL Luxemburg Real Estate (now equestricon SA), Equestricon NV (België) en Equestricon GmbH (Duitsland).

Om niet tegen de lamp te lopen zou Arl verkopers hebben verboden openheid te geven over de koopprijs en een contract met een zwijgplicht hebben laten ondertekenen.

To not get caught arl forbid sellers to reveal the sales prices of horses, he did this by making them sign confidentiality agreements

De koper moest vervolgens nog een forse bemiddelingsprovisie aan Joachim Arl zelf betalen.

Also arl made the buyers of horse pay a hefty commission

In het proces in Landshut gaat het om een Nederlands Grand Prix-paard.

This case is about a Dutch grand prix horse

Het dressuurpaard, dat begin 2008 voor 900.000 euro werd verkocht en waaraan Arl/Equestricon meer dan 500.000 euro zou hebben verdiend, bleek chronisch kreupel te zijn en is tot de dag van vandaag niet herstelt.

The horse was sold in 2008 for the sum of 900000 euro arl made 500000 euro on this sale, the horse turned out to be chronically lame and is to this day not recovered

. Vermoedelijk zijn meer kopers slachtoffer van Joachim Arl en Equestricon geworden.

Possibly more buyer have become victims of Joachim arl and equestricon

[Mardi]

Thanks for the translation. Now can you please remind me where CP fit into this puzzle ?

[dressage2012]

My concern is that the "translation" *sucks*, m'dear.

Well, that and the fact that certain parties may be forced to run against the lamp...

I have been provided a translation that hopefully is better than Google translate. I hope now you will review the facts and not the format.

[dressage2012]

Thanks for the translation. Now can you please remind me where CP fit into this puzzle ?

Joachim Arl and Patrik Kittel per the FEI website were the owners of the horse Don Urlik that was sold to the family in Palm Beach for 650,000. Parra and Katie Riley sued and the family countered according to the website. You may want to look
at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k "The Blue Tongue". The question had been asked, did anyone know anything about Don Urlik?

[Justice~for~Horses]

Thanks for the translation. Now can you please remind me where CP fit into this puzzle ?

http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/equine...defendant.aspx

[dressage2012]

Joachim Arl and Patrik Kittel per the FEI website were the owners of the horse Don Urlik that was sold to the family in Palm Beach for 650,000. Parra and Katie Riley sued and the family countered according to the website. You may want to look
at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k "The Blue Tongue". The question had been asked, did anyone know anything about Don Urlik?

Attached is the FEI history on Don Urlik, apparently the horse has been sold again.

https://data.fei.org/Horse/Detail.as...6565BA96F0F087

[skydy]

..and what has all this to do with the subject at hand?

[dressage2012]

..and what has all this to do with the subject at hand?

Parra is involved in a court case involving the horse Don Urlik,
a civil and criminal case involving William PFF and another case that has been filed in NJ involving horse fraud. Of course all of these are allegations and have not been proven in the courts yet.

[skydy]

Yes, I get that...and I repeat, what has all this to do with the subject at hand?

Mr. Buck, who you seem to think is an advocate for your position on this matter, has been CONVICTED of a crime.
Granted , not horse related, from the record that I have seen..
(Of course,according to Mr. Buck, there was a conspiracy against him).

I have no dog in this fight. I know none of the people (who have made their first post on this thread), I don't know Mr. Buck, or Dr. Parra , however, I read your words, and I must say, I don't have sympathy for the the way you are representing yourselves on either side of this controversy.

This situation is awful. It seems, a much loved horse suffered a terrible injury. Dr. Parra feels unjustly accused.
Ms. Miranda has lost the potential of her much loved horse.
I do care..
The parties involved , the court, and the attorneys, will work it out, without our help (or hysteria).

Mr. Buck? Can't even go there....

[ise@ssl]

skydy - this IS A BULLETIN BOARD. People post here about topics and events and horse matters. You seem to feel it's inappropriate for people to discuss this serious matter.

You criticize people posting on here. Yes the matter will be settled in court but it's a very serious matter and issues of horse abuse should be discussed in my opinion. You have passed judgement on people posting on here and given everyone a negative evaluation. While you post bullets about Mr. Buck and don't go into detail.

And when top horses are discussed in articles or in paid for narratives (such as Dressage Daily) - it does seem odd that the death of a horse that had so much talent and so much written about him had no mention anywhere in print when he died.

The great option on the internet is if you don't like the discussions you can just click to another site.

[pasturepal]

We have been presented with the fact that charges have been filed. I believe it will be up to the courts at this point to determine if there is a criminal nature to the actions that took place and what consequenses (if any according to the law) are appropriate. All parties involved should allow the formal process to now take over and refrain from public commentary. What I know for sure and hope others are coming to realize is that questionable activity must be monitored daily by clients, other professionals and governing bodies. If you see something wrong at your barn, at a show - wherever - report it instead of only coming on here and venting. The photos of William PFF down in the arena gave me flashbacks to photos of carriage horses down in NYC and we see the constant battle over whether horse activity should exist anymore in the city. If you are an ardent supporter of Dressage (or any horse sport really) and wish to see it continue - you must make it clear with your voice and your presence and your dollars when activities are conducted by individuals that are not in the best interest of the horse. I have done that myself and paid the consequence for being the lone voice of reason in some situations - but, I have no regrets. If we who enjoy the sport don't monitor this - someone else will. Little more will be accomplished here by anonymous posts on bulletin boards - it is your activity in the real world that can make a change. For whatever happened - I am truly sorry for William and his family for his condition. May he still be able to feel the love of his caretakers and find enjoyment in his days.

[Velvet]

I have NO dog in this fight and have not read all of the preceding pages on this post, but instead just saw the article on this site. What struck me as wrong was this paragraph:


Parra said he believes the legal action is designed to distract him in his quest to be on the team and reach a settlement, noting he “has no intention to capitulate to such highly suspect behavior and fully intends to take whatever steps necessary to address the damage that has been caused by Ms. Miranda’s and Mr. Buck’s reprehensible behavior.”

It really smacks of "none proclaim their innocence so loudly as the guilty." Not meaning all of their claims are true, but when someone responds this strongly and throws counter-accusations, it immediately becomes a pissing contest where both parties are usually at fault. If he was 100% innocent of ANY wrong doing, or feelings that he should have done something differently during the crisis and training with the horse, then I think he would have just kept his mouth shut and let it all come out in court.

Like I said, I don't really care, because I don't know enough. I just thought that was a suspicious comment to make.

[meupatdoes]

Stick around with horses awhile yet, kid. Quick assessments are just that, too easy. Many holes appear slowly, and many times they aren't holes, just someone happily assuming that 2 follows 1, forgetting that here are halves and quarters in between.

Not sure why you're being so completely obnoxious, but I've already stuck around a good while.
One of my trainers from many moons ago had a boyfriend that was a dealer, so 8 brand new horses would come off the stock trailer fresh out of the backwoods auction every weekend with absolutely NO known history and most likely a whole shizzle-load of crappy training and I would go down the list seeing what they knew and what they didn't with an eye toward getting them sold to a pleasure home later in the week. It was a revolving door, and I have probably sat on more different horses on their first ride straight from the auction with no known history than the number of different horses most non-professionals have sat on in their lives.
Number of horses I flipped over = 0
Number of times I hit the ground = 0
Number of remotely serious incidents = also 0

Just a general question for those of you who take horses in for training. What's your normal format for what's done in the first day or two when the horse arrives at your farm? Specifically young horses that are green broke.

I personally have no problems getting on a green broke horse on his first day. I have walked this talk with my own Oldenburg, who arrived at the training barn out of the place where he was field boarded with about three rides under his belt, and went straight to work (longe + short ride) within half an hour of unloading off the trailer. He was so green at the time we were still attached to the longe line, but he still went to work right away. See also above revolving door with the endless parade of auction horses. They were supposed to get SOLD in a week, not take a week to settle in.

I have had ottbs that I hopped on two days after their last race with no longe just hop on and go. No problems with those.
There have been others that I didn't get on for a month because they indicated they needed more time.

Watch the horse and what it's telling you.
There is no point in going glacially slow for the sake of going glacially slow. It gets you nowhere and just wastes the owners's board and training money.
But rushing it right past its boiling point in T-2 seconds won't get you anywhere either.
See what it's ready for, and do that.

But what do I know. I should probably stick around a little longer since I'm just a kid.

[ThreeFigs]

ise@ssl, you may easily look up Mr. Buck's litigious adventures.

It's his hobby, I believe, and yes, he does think there's a conspiracy against him. Ms. Miranda does herself no favors associating with him. I will await the results of the court case, if it ever happens.

Plenty of blame and lousy judgement on both sides of the issue.

[ise@ssl]

Everyone has choices to make about their own training programs and to whom they send their horses for training. I'm sure those of us who have been breeding/owning horses for over 25 years know that some methods work better than others for the horses in the long run.

meupatdoes - I would not choose your method. I don't view training horses for competition careers as an assembly line that's working against a stop watch. I believe in the Pyramid Method for training (for any discipline) and have seen far too often that the "fast and furious" method in most cases ends up with horses that have missing pieces in their foundation and unfortunately those problems show up later with future owners having to spend the time and money to fix.

[carolprudm]

ise@ssl, you may easily look up Mr. Buck's litigious adventures.

It's his hobby, I believe, and yes, he does think there's a conspiracy against him. Ms. Miranda does herself no favors associating with him. I will await the results of the court case, if it ever happens.

Plenty of blame and lousy judgement on both sides of the issue.

FWIW references to many of Mr Buck's activities can be found in this thread
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...314220&page=16

particularly the last few pages.

I wonder if Ms Miranda has ever heard "With friends like that who needs enemies"?

[ThreeFigs]

[ise@ssl]

I honestly have NO interest in Mr. Buck. So taking time to research him is not something I will be doing.

Ms. Miranda has her OWN ATTORNEY - ready the CIVIL COMPLAINT on RateMyHorsePro. Your comments that Mr. Buck filing a complaint with the SPCA for a criminal action (which anyone can do under New Jersey Law) will some how influence the Civil court has no legal basis.

The Criminal complaints was brought by the SPCA against CP. If the orginal complaint was filed by Mr. Buck - obviously the SPCA found legitimate evidence presented by Mr. Buck to pursue the matter in court.

If the legal issues stand on their own merit - I would have to assume it has no bearing you brought the factual evidence.

Who Mr. Buck has taken legal action against - when, where or how doesn't affect my feelings about this specific case. I've read all of the documents on Rate My Horse Pro, seen the videos and photos, read the information on the website and based my opinion on those facts. I would hope others would as well.