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  1. #1
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    As quoted by Duffy... In my "younger" amateur days, I might have agreed with a couple posters here about the amateur being the only one "allowed" to ride/train/show his/her own horse at a given show. However, now being a single mother of two young children, I would have to disagree with that rule. I have had horses that do much better when hacked in the ring, if allowed, on show mornings. When I feel up to it and do not have the children with me, I'm still happy doing it. But, when I have the children with me, who are already exhausted from having a late dinner after schooling the night before, only to have to wait another 6-10 hours later in the day for Mom to actually show, after having gotten to the show pre-dawn, and then to try to have a pleasant evening again, only to do it again the following morning?? I don't think so! LOL

    Another reason to not have that rule, is the lack of horses available to the professionals to ride in their divisions. What would happen to those rated open divisions if professionals were not allowed to show horses shown by amateurs at the same shows? I know there are some owners out there who love to just watch their horses show. I love doing it myself! But, there are times in my life when actually showing myself is what I want to do as well. I would like to always have the option to have my cake and eat it too, if at all possible!


    This was on the AHSA/USET/et al thread, and I thought it deserved it's own thread (sorry Duffy! dragging you into the limelight!!!)

    My thoughts are that I agree with Duffy, for the following reasons...

    If I am rider who happens to work for a living, and can't get to my late afternoon Friday classes until a couple hours before they start (just have to get some work done before I leave!) I would not like to lose th efreedom of putting someone on the horse that morning to hack him.

    If I have a green horse, I would like the freedom to show the horse in my divisions, as well as have the professional ride him in his division. Personally, I am not happy when those divisions occur on same days, but since I am not in charge of scheduling, I don't wantto be a victim of the schedule, ESPECIALLY if classes get moved around at the last minute.

    Those are just some of the reasons why I would not like to see restrictions on pro/am rides.. other thoughts?

    [This message has been edited by DMK (edited 08-24-2000).]
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  2. #2
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    As quoted by Duffy... In my "younger" amateur days, I might have agreed with a couple posters here about the amateur being the only one "allowed" to ride/train/show his/her own horse at a given show. However, now being a single mother of two young children, I would have to disagree with that rule. I have had horses that do much better when hacked in the ring, if allowed, on show mornings. When I feel up to it and do not have the children with me, I'm still happy doing it. But, when I have the children with me, who are already exhausted from having a late dinner after schooling the night before, only to have to wait another 6-10 hours later in the day for Mom to actually show, after having gotten to the show pre-dawn, and then to try to have a pleasant evening again, only to do it again the following morning?? I don't think so! LOL

    Another reason to not have that rule, is the lack of horses available to the professionals to ride in their divisions. What would happen to those rated open divisions if professionals were not allowed to show horses shown by amateurs at the same shows? I know there are some owners out there who love to just watch their horses show. I love doing it myself! But, there are times in my life when actually showing myself is what I want to do as well. I would like to always have the option to have my cake and eat it too, if at all possible!


    This was on the AHSA/USET/et al thread, and I thought it deserved it's own thread (sorry Duffy! dragging you into the limelight!!!)

    My thoughts are that I agree with Duffy, for the following reasons...

    If I am rider who happens to work for a living, and can't get to my late afternoon Friday classes until a couple hours before they start (just have to get some work done before I leave!) I would not like to lose th efreedom of putting someone on the horse that morning to hack him.

    If I have a green horse, I would like the freedom to show the horse in my divisions, as well as have the professional ride him in his division. Personally, I am not happy when those divisions occur on same days, but since I am not in charge of scheduling, I don't wantto be a victim of the schedule, ESPECIALLY if classes get moved around at the last minute.

    Those are just some of the reasons why I would not like to see restrictions on pro/am rides.. other thoughts?

    [This message has been edited by DMK (edited 08-24-2000).]
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  3. #3
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    I posted this under the original thread as well. I work full time and most of the time my horse leaves Monday or Tuesday for a show. Is he supposed to stand in his stall all week until I arrive Friday evening? How about the days when I show in the afternoon and can't make it out to flat in the ring in the morning? Am I going to be penalized beacuse I have to work? What about the income loss to the professionals? How in the world would you monitor something like this?
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  4. #4
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    Sorry guys. I am an Ad.Am. who rides, trains, ships and shows my own horse. Nobody rides her but me--EVER. We do well in spite of me. I tend to think if a trainer is showing, tuning and training the horse and the adult shows it in the adult division, then it sort of negates the purpose of having the ammys in the 1st place(sorry for the run-on). Those of us who do our own stuff are essentially still riding against the pros. Just my opinion, don't flame me for it.



  5. #5
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    I for sure want the option of putting a Pro on my horse, I'm a ammy with a full time job also, and being one, mistakes happen, I want to know that my horse could be given confidence in the ring by a pro if needed.



  6. #6
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    Bascule, I do agree with you at the Adult level. There is one barn in our area that has the Pro ride the division before, every horse that will then show in the 3' adults, that's excessive. However at the 3'6" height I truly want the option of having the pro sit on to "fix" a problem IF needed.



  7. #7
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    Van Teal: Understood. I work full-time, too. I am never home before midnight during the week. Nobody gives my horse more confidence than I do and I don't want them to.



  8. #8
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    Just my opinion, I'm not suggesting a rule change or anything. Just something for people to think about.



  9. #9
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    Bascule - hey, isn't that what this is all about - our own opinions? Nobody should be flamed for it!!! So, while I am disagreeing with you for the following reasons, please don't think I don't respect your opinion!

    My perspective is that I too was an A/A rider who has her own barn, ships, does about 90% of the training, will go to some shows on my own if necessary BUT I appreciate the fact that when I get to ride with my trainer (located in different state), my horse gets additional tuning that I am just not good enough to give him. He also has increased in value by virtue of the wins those professionals have earned. I can assure you, plenty of people are still beating me in MY classes, despite this fact, especially those that have those top dollar horses that are so finished that a professional doesn't need to get on them!

    So I think there are lot of inequities in the current system, I just don't think there is an easy fix to them... just my thought!
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  10. #10
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    I'm in the same boat with many of the rest of you, but here's another twist. With my 5 year old mare, who for now only my trainer shows, sometimes I need to work her while my trainer is busy with other horses and students. Or if I'm not around, my trainer's apprentice sits on her. She does the jumpers, so at an A show she only does 3 or 4 classes total and there are plenty of days she's not showing but still needs to get out and about.

    With my gelding, we usually only do local 2 day shows, and I'm generally the only one who rides him, but then he's a laid-back 13 year old and he simply doesn't need any extra work. Still, at the few A shows we do go to, I'd like to keep the option of having my trainer ride him on those days I'm working and can't be there at out of town shows.

    For the future, I'd also like to keep the option of me showing my mare in amateur jumper classes and my trainer showing her in the pro classes. That's not because I can't handle her or need my trainer to keep her going or tuned up, but because I'm not about to ride any horse in the Open Jumpers. However, if the horse is talented enough to do opens, I'd like to see her do them with my trainer.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  11. #11
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    Why not keep everything as it is but ADD a division in which only the person riding in the class will ride the horse during the course of the show?

    That way all the folks with pros can still ride like they do now, but openings will be made for people who train/show on their own.

    Let's face it, aren't many people turned off from competing in A/A because you just about have to have a pro doing the bulk of the work? Again, nothing wrong with that, it can make for a better horse, but why not include people who now are turned off by A/A. I bet everyone knows people who would show in this new division, and it could be a nice reward/recognition for those who choose to go it alone, whether for personal or financial reasons. It could also help to get shows away from the perception(fact?) that unless you have big bucks to spend, don't bother with AHSA, cuz there's nothing for you here.

    What do you think?



  12. #12
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    Hmmm...interesting idea Anne! What height level were you thinking about? Hunters and jumpers?
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  13. #13
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    I hate to sound like a broken record, but once again (as I posted on LA's thread), I think that rules and their application should go to support the goals/missions of an overseeing body. If the sub-goal of the AA division is to broaden the constituency of adult riders, then allowing professionals to ride as well makes sense. But let me present a different scenario as it pertains to kids (my immediate interest, for the moment). If the goal of the Pony Hunter division is to cultivate great riders for the future, then what purpose do professional riders serve? As an example, there are kids we see time and again who NEVER even warm-up their own ponies in the warm-up ring (and most own multiple ponies). [As a side note, one mom "bragged" to me that after 3 years of riding, her 9 year old could not tack up her own pony and would never care to!] A small professional warms up the kid's five ponies and the kid is perched on the saddle then torpedoed into the ring. The pony is on autopilot. If, on the odd chance a pony misbehaves, on pops the professional, everyone waits while it's schooled, the kid is popped back on and wins the next round. This IS NOT allowed at Pony Finals and, I believe, should not be allowed at Horse Shows if we want to build up riding skills (not merely point acquisition skills) in our children. The allowance of the professional appears to be counter-productive in the long-run. That's one reason why I think that the best rule-making will follow from a cogent, inclusive, strategic goal setting process.



  14. #14
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    Anne: I very much like your idea.

    Also, something else I feel strongly about (for myself at least). If I can't fix any problems myself or with me on my horse and my trainer on the ground, then I shouldn't be showing at the A level. That is when it is time for me to school and do homework---- at home.

    [This message has been edited by Bascule (edited 08-23-2000).]



  15. #15
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    In principle I agree with Bascule as I would prefer to be the only rider on my (somewhat problematic!) gelding. However, I don't have my own barn or my own truck and trailer, so my horse goes to the shows with everyone else's horses--today--when my show doesn't start until Saturday. Sometimes it just isn't possible for my guy to stay home and for someone to come back and pick him up on Friday for me (especially Indio). Yes, I will go ride him after work although time will be really tight with daylight savings starting to wane, but it sure will be nice that our pro, who is only there today through Friday morning, will have an opportunity to hack him in the daylight so he doesn't have to sit in a port-a-stall all day. I prefer that to longing by a longshot. And to clarify, on the days when I am there and am showing, she quite gratefully does not ride him--she's usually gone home.

    Okay, this may sound hypocritical (it's okay for a pro to ride in SOME circumstances, but NOT others, LOL) but what I do find a little objectionable is the scenario I witnessed at a recent show: Junior rider is watching the USET course. Trainer is warming up junior's horse figure-eighting over a single vertical up until there is one horse in front. Trainer then takes horse to junior who gets on and goes right in! If you are ready to do the USET, you should be able to warm up your horse for it as well. Same goes for the A/A riders.



  16. #16
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    I agree with Portia -- having the pro ride my horse at the show early in the week, allows me to work until the amateur classes start, usually on Thursday or Friday. I have one more point to add. While I've ridden my entire life western, I'm a green novice when it comes to this jumping stuff. I make a lot of mistakes and my hunter is smart enough to pick up on it. The trainer riding her in the warm up classes and pre-greens allows him to "fix" the damage I sometimes do. If the rules were to change, and I was the only rider allowed on my mare at a show, I would quit showing.



  17. #17
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    Maybe an option would be to ban anyone BUT the rider from riding the horse in the schooling area for the class, once the class commences (I say that in cast the 1st years run in the ring prior to the class starting). That won't stop people who want to leave the area and school, but most shows don't let hunter riders school in pony/jumper schooling areas, and don't have a general schooling area, so I think it would be an improvement, as well as providing a "position" on the subject of horses that get schooled for the class...
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  18. #18
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ash:
    Hmmm...interesting idea Anne! What height level were you thinking about? Hunters and jumpers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well, I was thinking hunters. Jumpers we all just go for it, right? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Hunters seem to be the problem because of the subjective judging. Believe me, I'm all for professional trainers, but it does seem a shame if those hard-working amateurs who are putting out nice horses all by themselves shouldn't have a place in AHSA. Actually, isn't that what A/A was meant to be? It's ok that it evolved into something else, but why not have classes for the rest? 2'6", sure, but also the big stuff. People would show if they felt they were getting a more level playing field and competing against other amateurs and not against the pro trainers. Heck, I'll even sponsor a class myself and put my money where my mouth is!

    I'm just trying to think of ways to include more people in AHSA shows. It seems to me that the vast majority of horse folks don't see any reason for being involved with AHSA.



  19. #19
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    I agree 95 % with Bascule. It makes me CRAZY that A/A riders trainers ride the horse in the warm-up and just put the rider up for the class. If you can't ride the warm-up you shouldn't be showing at recognized shows. I also hate that the pros ride the greens or working division before the A/O rides the same courses on the same day. I can appreciate that some people don't want to show at all or at 3'6" and just like to see their horse go and that's o.k. but I don't think the pros and the ammies should show at the same show. I'm not saying that if your horse gets shipped 4 days before you arrive that the trainer shouldn't get your horse out and exercise it for you but just don't have the trainer show it. Oh and Ponymom- that would make me nuts as well; those kids aren't learning horsemanship at all.



  20. #20
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    I agree with most of what Bascule says.

    I can see some of the other points, too.

    Personally, I would never SEND my horse to a show under conditions which required someone else to ride her. I get my "jollies" out of the training process, and primarily see shows as "the proof of the pudding". For both these reasons, I am unlikely to be sending my horse to "away" shows without me.

    But I can see that for others the showing itself is the objective, and the training (whoeveer does it) is primarily the means to that end.

    I can see a couple of compromises that could satisify both objectives.

    First, in CT (and I think in dressage) someone other than the entered rider is allowed to ride the horse "at a free walk on a long rein".

    I think that, for the hunter/jumper disciplines, a rule which allowed someone other than the entered rider to ride the horse ON THE FLAT ONLY would work. (You can never write a rule that will distinguish between "hacking" and "schooling on the flat", even though "hacking" is the intent here.) This would take care of the logistics problems of a horse that needs to be exercised when the rider is not on the grounds, while eliminating the trainer "tuning up the horse" just before the rider gets on.

    This still leaves the problem of cross entering. If the horse is entered in both the Schooling Hunters and the A/A (or Green Working and A/O) then both the amateur and the trainer are "entered riders".

    If (as is often but not always the case) the amateur and "pro" classes are on different days, you could make the rule apply on a day by day basis (e.g., the pro can ride in the "schooling" division on Friday- and school on Friday- but only the amateur could school and ride on Saturday).

    ALternatively, the AA division already has extensive restrictions on cross entering. They could be extended to say that the horse may not enter any class with another rider.

    Or, where there are lots of AA entries, the division could be split into an "open" AA (with no restrictions on entering classes with another rider), and a "restricted" AA class, where only the entered rider can show the horse in other classes. You would want to set it up so the "restricted" AA division was the more prestigious.

    From my personal perspective, I would support a rule that said that, for AA, AO, Jr., Childrens, etc., no cross entries with another rider are allowed. This would also have the desirable impact of reducing the "pounding" on horses showing both Green and AO. YOu would have to choose AO this show, Green the next. But I think that the money and politics are firmly established against this kind of rule change.

    The one about "other than the entered rider" riding on the flat only, could, I think get enough support to fly.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



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