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  1. #41
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    Dec. 29, 1999
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    Harrisburg, PA USA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JRG:

    I myself would prefer "Groom" or "Hand", rather than, the Canadian, Mexican, or any other slur that is less than curtious.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Being called a Canadian or a Mexican isn't a slur!

    But I know what you meant, JRG. It's using the word 'Mexican' in place of the word 'groom' that is offensive. It's narrow-minded. Maybe all of Kelsy's grooms are Mexicans; but maybe they're Mexicans and Dominicans and Texans and Costa Ricans and WASPS.

    Kelsy, when you said, "how many Mexicans do you bring" it sounds like how many tack trunks do you bring. It sounded like they weren't people to you. You identified a low-paying, under-appreciated job not by it's name, but by the nationality of a people.


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  2. #42
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    Apr. 25, 2000
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    9,170

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
    Well, maybe I'm missing something, but... why is it that the majority of the grooms are "Hispanic"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I am not trying to be condesending to any racial group, but how many "privledged" people do you find are willing to work 60+ hour work weeks for minimum wage where people treat you like absolute s***?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
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    Apr. 27, 2000
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    Seattle, WA
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    Well, not many I'd imagine, but why just them? They're just born with the ability to take long hours and low pay?



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2000
    Location
    New York
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    206

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    JRG, I felt the same way! 'Do your Mexicans speak English?' Good lord! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Originally posted by ErinB:"Well, maybe I'm missing something, but... why is it that the majority of the grooms are "Hispanic"?"


    Probably for the same reason that the majority of the grooms when I was a kid were black.

    There is quite a high demand, but nobody is willing to pay much.

    And many WASPs think it is "beneath them".

    You can start out with relatively few skills or training. (And if you come from a rural agrarian economy, you probably already have the basic skills.)

    Working conditions are somewhat better than migrant labor.

    Room, if not board, is often provided.

    Additional reasons for non-English speaking immigrants (who may not have working papers)-

    Not as likely to be raided by the INS as working in a resaturant.

    Lack of English is not a major impedimet (especially if there are already other grooms speaking your language).

    Employers are willing to hire people without papers.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jun. 2, 2000
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    Keswick, VA
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    550

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandstone:
    I don't think that me or Kelsey were trying to be mean or ofend anyone. She was just wondering. And I just answered the question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeah, Marion~ That's right, I didn't mean to offend anyone! I was just trying to start a discussion on your grooms... Sometimes I don't realize it when I say bad things, i.e. the Mexicans. I'm just so used to me and my friend reffereing to them as Mexicans, that's what everyone does and I shouldn't have said it on here. SORRY.



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2000
    Location
    charlotte, NC USA
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    I live near a ton of Mexicans and they are the nicest people I've ever met. They set a fabulous example for how we should live. Those grooms you have now, in 20 years, their children will be horse owners.
    I hope that everyone (no matter how you refer to them mexicans, grooms, hispanics whatever) appreciate what they do for you. It pisses me off when people write them off as being dumb. It happens all the time here. I see sales clerks treat them so rudely and accuse them of being dumb it makes me sick (all because during their 60 hours of work a week building your cheap house, they haven't perfected their english.)
    They are intelligent people with a lot of common sense and inherent good naturedness. I have a feeling they will comprise a large quantity of our leaders in the future.
    The witchy witch witch of south central NC.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    May. 1, 2000
    Location
    New Jersey
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    171

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kelsy:
    How many Mexicans does your barn usually bring? Do your Mexicans speak English? Only some of mine do so it makes it hard.

    <3, Kelsey

    [This message has been edited by Kelsy (edited 10-11-2000).]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm sure that you weren't trying to sound rude, but that sounded awful. Maybe its just me, but saying "Mexicans" really sounds stereotypical. A lot of people *do* have Spanish speaking grooms, but first of all that doesn't make them Mexican, and secondly, calling them grooms sounds so much better.

    Sorry to single you out (you're certainly not the first person that I've heard say that), but to me that's really rude.
    -Jenise



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jun. 2, 2000
    Location
    Keswick, VA
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    550

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
    I live near a ton of Mexicans and they are the nicest people I've ever met. They set a fabulous example for how we should live. Those grooms you have now, in 20 years, their children will be horse owners.
    I hope that everyone (no matter how you refer to them mexicans, grooms, hispanics whatever) appreciate what they do for you. It pisses me off when people write them off as being dumb. It happens all the time here. I see sales clerks treat them so rudely and accuse them of being dumb it makes me sick (all because during their 60 hours of work a week building your cheap house, they haven't perfected their english.)
    They are intelligent people with a lot of common sense and inherent good naturedness. I have a feeling they will comprise a large quantity of our leaders in the future.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    People seem to think that because I asked if they spoke English I said they were dumb. They're not dumb and I know that. I was just wondering about the langauge because I don't speak any Spanish so I can't communicate well with mine.

    And we often spend a few weeks a year in our family's house in Cancun and I always see nice Mexicans there. I have nothing against them. They're nice people and have never been anything but nice to me.



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2000
    Location
    Arizona
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    976

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    "How many Mexicans do you bring?" sounds the same as "How many saddle pads do you bring?"

    I don't care if you're 16 or 60, or HOW you and your friends are accustomed to talking around the barn, you'd better stop it now unless you always intend to travel in elitist, racist circles throughout your life. But maybe someone who doesn't tack up their own horse at a show WILL always travel in elitist, racist circles, so in that case, I guess it doesn't matter if you treat some people like property.

    Wait--isn't the Civil War over?
    Visit the County Island, home of Whiskey the ranch horse: http://countyisland.wordpress.com
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    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
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    Jun. 2, 2000
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    Keswick, VA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LisaW-B:
    "How many Mexicans do you bring?" sounds the same as "How many saddle pads do you bring?"

    I don't care if you're 16 or 60, or HOW you and your friends are accustomed to talking around the barn, you'd better stop it now unless you always intend to travel in elitist, racist circles throughout your life. But maybe someone who doesn't tack up their own horse at a show WILL always travel in elitist, racist circles, so in that case, I guess it doesn't matter if you treat some people like property.

    Wait--isn't the Civil War over?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I can tack up my own horse, and I am not racist. Did you see my last post? I think they're nice people. You seem to be stereo-typing people who have grooms, isn't that wrong? Just because you have grooms doesn't mean you are bad. Geez...



  12. #52
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    Oct. 5, 1999
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    A place called vertigo
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    I know a lot of gentlemen from Mexico who work at the track. Most of them live at the track, and send about 90% of their pay home to their families. The dollar is so strong in Mexico that these individuals can make enough money here in 10 years that they can retire to Mexico for the rest of their lives. They own nice houses (paid for) and cars, and can send their children to college. I've been out of college for about 11 years, and while not hopelessly in debt (mortgage, 1 car payment), I won't be retiring anytime soon! So who are the smart ones?

    Also, what exactly are you all doing that you need grooms for your one horse? Don't you know how to get a horse clean? My trainer takes a load of students to a local show and tells them, come find me when you need to school. He is so busy riding and coaching, he can't possibly mother hen his students. Try it, it is really not stressful to tack and bathe your own horse. You just have to have a plan and work a little.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Oct. 8, 2000
    Location
    East of LA-LA Land, Calif.
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    10,288

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    The whole "Mexican groom" thing is especially pervasive here in Calif. As an example, my family has a small ranch (farm?), and we literally have our horses, yes, in the backyard... but they're fancy horses, and it's a NICE backyard... with an arena, lights and jumps (am I okay now?). Plus, my mom and I do all the work: mucking, feeding, etc. Keeps us both young and fit! This year we had to have some warranty work done on the barn. And the company rep, this big guy, comes out to inspect the damage. He goes into the damaged stall with my mom and me, and agrees to fix the problem, but then kicks away some of the bedding and says, "You have to make sure the damp shavings are kept away from the metal frame. Tell your Mexicans to do a better job." My mom and I just stared at each other, not knowing what to say. When the guy left I told my mom, "Okay, you can be Maria and I'll be Juanita." Kind of funny, but sort of sad, too. Grooming and mucking are not glamorous jobs, but it's the way I was brought up: when I was a kid, my first instructor MADE us do all of our own work to be better horsemen/women. Furthermore, at least around my neck of the woods, immigrants from Mexico (legal and otherwise) are often taken advantage of at some --not all, don't flame me-- of the show barns because they're willing to do work that some folks feel is beneath them.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Oct. 3, 2000
    Location
    Toronto, a city that\'s not won a Stanley Cup in my damned lifetime
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    Unfortunately, exploitation is a borderless practise. A while back I was at the barn of a prominent, former Cdn Olympian, who boasted that the 'best immigrant is an illegal one'.

    We here in Canada like to hire young peripatetic Europeans kids (and some are as young as 16) to assume all the tasks that we deem beneath us - mucking, grooming, feeding, cleaning one's house - for pitiful pay, unfit accomodations, with plenty of threats and bullying thrown in.

    As for grooms, well, our 10-year-olds first job will be to 'apprentice' with the grooms whom we've had the honour of meeting. She will learn more about horsemanship from them, I suspect, than from some trainers, coaches, and especially some of her friends/competitors in the sport.



  15. #55
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    Oct. 8, 2000
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    Philadelphia
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    I, too, thought the initial post must have been a joke...and it's a class issue as well as one of race/ethnicity. I've witnessed some shockingly crass behavior on the part of show riders towards grooms, and it was obvious to me that the relationship perfectly mirrors that between the ruling classes and their servants in any other context. My goodness, sometimes I'm grateful that I've always been too poor to make it to the top-rated shows, with this sort of attitude so commonplace.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2000
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    1,112

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    Wow...I really thought those first posts were a joke. When I realized they weren't, I was so DISGUSTED that I had to force myself to stay away from my computer for an entire day so that I wouldn't say something that would get me kicked off here.

    This past summer, my barn took 11 horses to a week long "A" show that was 3 hours from home. Do you know how many Mexicans (or other grooms) we took? NONE!!! Everyone took care of their own horses!!! One rider was a our designated braider, and we all paid her for that. A lot of people pitched in on mucking, feeding, etc. and our coaches did all the late night/early morning stuff (in addition to coaching!). My friend and I spent an hour digging trenches in the rain because the grounds were flooding and we thought it was more important that our horses stayed dry then us "being relaxed before our class" was.

    I'm not even going to get into the racial slurs thing...although that was pretty bad in and of itself. But who says that any groom deserves to be treated like a peice of property? I've got to agree with whoever said that it sounded like "how many Mexicans are you bringing?" could easily have meant how many tack trunks or saddle pads.

    Kelsey, not to single you out, but someone said that you are probably young. Well, I'm 16 and I find it disturbing that it is okay to act that way if you are young. If you are not taught properly when you are young, what do you think is going to happen when you are "old enough to know better"??? When you hit 18, you don't suddenly transform into a P.C. person, not unless you were taught earlier. Please, everyone do all us teens a favour, and don't assume that because we are "only teenagers" we don't know any better. You bet your a** we know better, some of us choose to act like snots anyway!!!

    BTW, how did the American horse show world get so elitest that there is now a market for illegal immigrants to flood up there and take all these jobs as grooms? Don't any of you guys actually do your own work?!? Okay, so it is a huge generalization to say that all Americans use grooms, or that all Canadians don't. But when a teenage girl gets on this bb and casually asks, "how many Mexicans do you use, do they speak english?" and gets dozens of replies going, "well, I bring 2 or 3, most of them only speak spanish" it really gives a bad image of your country. Why don't all of you who do routinely use Mexicans try going to one show and doing the work yourself. I'm sure if you do, you will notice 3 things:
    1) A lot of people use grooms out there, more than is warranted (you tend to notice it more when you do your own work)
    2)Wow, it didn't kill me to hose down my own horse.
    3)What the h*ll was I thinking, posting such a racist, elitest, snobbish, and downright appalling comment like that for?!?

    Now that I'm late for school, I'm going to go...sorry for the length. And thanks to everyone who expressed similiar disgust...scary, isn't it?


    5 members found this post helpful.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2000
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    1,112

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    I just remembered another post I wanted to reply to. Someone asked..."why is it that horses always behave better for the Mexicans than anyone else?" The answer: because the "Mexicans" actually spend time with them! Go hug your horse.


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  18. #58
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 1999
    Location
    Cheshire, England
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    137

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
    And, Si, the Irish economy being what it is these days, they are probably hiring you English to groom for them, right? http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not wrong, two grooms of my acquaintance (used to live with us) went to work in Irish Studs! But there is a BIG irish community in Manchester (where I live).



  19. #59
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    Feb. 17, 2000
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    Unionville, PA/State College, PA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Palisades:
    I just remembered another post I wanted to reply to. Someone asked..."why is it that horses always behave better for the Mexicans than anyone else?" The answer: because the "Mexicans" actually spend time with them! Go hug your horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Don't even go there....
    -Jackie-
    "would you give nothing to be sitting on top of the world with your legs hanging free?" -dmb-

    http://community.webshots.com/user/luckyjax04



  20. #60
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    Dec. 29, 1999
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    Harrisburg, PA USA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
    Well, maybe I'm missing something, but... why is it that the majority of the grooms are "Hispanic"?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    ErinB, may I respectfully and gently attempt to explain what you are missing?

    Asking a question like 'why is it that the majority of grooms are Hispanic' often means the questioner has only been in their small world and has a narrow view. If you were a traveller to the the north, the midwest, to the east, to England, to Europe you might not think that all grooms are Hispanic.

    The danger comes when we make assumptions about a race of people based on our own limited experience of them.

    For instance, when I lived in Miami, I once was driving through a poor area of the city, where the population was 95% black, with an acquaintance of mine from Peru named Raoul. With great disgust, Raoul said: these people are awful, they can't take care of anything. Look what the blacks did to this section of Miami! They're all the same & only want to be on welfare.

    Now is that idiotic or what? His experience of dark-skinned people was that they all lived in slums. Excuse me Raoul, what about the black architects, teachers, physicians, Supreme Court Justices fer cryin' out loud???? But he judged an entire race by one bad neighborhood in one city in the world. A very narrow-minded man.

    Does anyone remember the book "Gentleman's Agreement" by Laura Z. Hobson? It's about making assumptions about an entire race of people. The title comes from the 'gentleman's agreement' to not allow Jewish people into country clubs, etc.

    Hmmm, I saw Gloria Estefan, Christine Aguillera and Ricky Martin on VH-1 last night. Why is it that the majority of singers are Hispanic?

    [This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 10-13-2000).]


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