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  1. #1
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    Default Oldenburg NA folks... St.Pr. titles?

    I am always trying to educate myself on how the different registries works etc. I've came across now 2 times about 2 different breeders in my area who are advertising mares that has been inspected and approved by the ISR Oldenburg NA registry as State Premium (or "ST.Pr.") mares.... (and I know those mare are NOT imported).

    I know the ISR OldNA is giving Premium awards to mares with scores over 105 points but I tought those mare were called "Premium mares"... What the "State" word or "ST." letters are for? I also know the mares can earn "stars" for various reasons. So is the ST. stands for Star? And the Pr. stands for Premium? Like if the mare both has the Premium award and the star award.. they call her a ST.Pr.??

    I'm a little confused.
    Last edited by Spike; Apr. 16, 2012 at 03:57 PM. Reason: edited to correct 106 pts... thanks for pointing it to me!
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  2. #2
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    Well the Premium and Star designations are different. I have two States Premium Westfalen pony mares. That designation doesn't exist in the OldNA/ISR registry - it was awarded the mares in Germany If people are stating their mares are States Premium when they aren't it's something that needs to be pointed out and corrected.

    There is also an Elite designation for mares in the OLDNA/ISR - for mares who have scored above a minimum in the Mare Performance Test and have produced one premium foal.
    Hope that helps you.
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  3. #3
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    Well it isn't written "State Premium" but only ST.Pr for one of the breeder, and St.Pr. for the other... So I was wondering if they were referring to some award in particular that the ISR OldNA would give that appeared to have the same short designation than the St.Pr. title given in Germany in other breeds.
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  4. #4
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    Default

    I just went to the ISR/Old website, and there is no mention of StPr awards or titles.



  5. #5
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    I would say that they are confused or trying to piggyback off the popularity of the St.Pr. title. There is NO St. Pr. in the ISR/Old! Maybe they think that all Premium Mares can be abbreviated StPr?

    As mentioned above, ISR/Old mares can be Premium, and/or Star mares (which should be designated */-/* or something similar so you know WHICH of the stars they have earned). They can also now earn the title "Elite."

    BTW, Premium Mares must earn 105 points or more, with acceptable and proven pedigree, and no score less than 6. Criteria are both conformatioin and movement.



  6. #6
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    Default

    In Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Westfalian, and I suspect Holstein too, you can ONLY get the St.Pr. designation in Germany.

    From Hanover, quote:

    Staatspraemie

    At the mare show the three-year-olds are awarded with the "Staatspraemie". The "Staatspraemie" is an encouragement measure of the Lower-Saxony State Government which aims at keeping good mares in the breed. Due to this it cannot be awarded beyond the borders of Lower Saxony.

    There are similar conditions abroad to receive a special title. This candidature and title resp. is, however not called "Staatspraemienstute" (St.Pr.St.) but "Elite Mare Candidate" (EMC) and "Elite Mare" (EM) resp.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    For Hanoverian, Westfalian mares in North America - An Elite Mare Candidate is a mare who has been inspected in hand and received good to excellent scores, plus has completed her field Mare Performance Test with good to excellent scores. When she produces a foal deemed to be of premium calibre, she completes her requirements and her title is changed to Elite Mare.

    In NA - GOV mares can have "Premium", "Verbands Premium", and "Special Premium" titles, depending on scores and whether or not they complete their NA MPT. Any mares who want to achieve the St.Pr. title must be shipped to Germany and undergo their Mare Performance Test in Germany. These mares are eligible for the Main Mare Book; further, she must be born from a mare who was also in the Main Mare Book!


    The ISR/Oldenburg NA does not award St.Pr. or EM titles. Instead, they have a STAR PROGRAM for mares, stallions, and breeders. For mares, there are 3 stars.

    #1 star - her Inspection Score - minimum 105 points with no individual score below 6. "Premium" inspection scores award her the title of Premium Mare, and she is put into the Premium Main Mare Book.

    #2 star - Quality of Foals - she has produced 3 premium foals.

    # 3 star - 2 ways to achieve it: (a) Performance of Mare and they lay out the criteria of her performance records, and/or (b) Performance of her offspring.

    The mare owner is responsible for gathering these records and submitting them so their mares can be awarded their stars.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    For a breeder to use the Title St.Pr. to a nonimported mare or a mare they did not ship to Germany to complete the MPT in Germany, means they are either confused, or are using the title dishonestly. For politeness, I always assume the former is the case (they're confused).

    That all being said, a mare who is registered with ISR/OLD NA I am pretty sure is not eligible or accepted with the verbands inside Germany, the country proper. I mean, with regards to wanting to ship a mare over there to complete her MPT so she can get her St.Pr. designation.

    Any mare of sufficient quality of pedigree, regardless of their original registration can be presented in North America to HanV, AHA, AHHA, GOV, SWANA, KWPN-NA, for broodmare inspection/approval as long as they have sufficient pedigree and quality that suits that registry, so just because a mare is papered with the ISR/Old, doesn't mean she is limited to only being eligible for having foals in one studbook. Mares, like stallions, can be breeding approved in multiple studbooks, if her quality is sufficient.

    Also, understand the proper terminology!

    Registration = pedigree birth papers
    Approval papers = mare breeding inspected and approved, irregardless of MPT completion.
    Last edited by rodawn; Apr. 6, 2012 at 03:43 PM. Reason: oops, typos
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  7. #7
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    Default

    Thanks Rodawn for this text. I am aware (or at leat, I try to stay aware lol!) how the HanV, GOV and AHHA registries works and what titles/awards they give and how the mares can get them. Same thing for the differences between registration, approval etc... God knows how hard I am trying to make people understand the difference around here!! (French part of Canada = lots of people not speaking english = limited educational informations available re: Warmblood breeding practices and terminology...And sometimes, to top it, misinformation spreaded by people with agendas. Oups. I said it.)

    But it is very nice of you to have taken the time to summarize it, it will probably help others too!

    The thing is that I tought I knew how the ISR Oldenburg NA was working. But when I saw the ST.Pr. abreviation used by not only one, but TWO different breeders in my area in front of the name of 3 different of their mares, wich I personnaly know are approved with the ISR Oldenburg-NA with premium scores (one is also MMB with GOV (not with premium scores), but was inspected in Quebec by the GOV, definitely not in Germany), I started wondering if things had changed since I last done business with that registry, or if I missed something.

    Apparently not. They must be confused like you said in a very tactful way.
    Last edited by Spike; Apr. 16, 2012 at 04:02 PM.
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  8. #8
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    It's confusing enough without people using the wrong terms on top of it!

    My other guess, assuming this was not done on purpose (i have not seen the ads for the mares in question), would be that they use St.Pr. as an abbreviation for either Star Premium or Star Program... If someone has seen the term States Premium before and doesn't really know what it means, then i could see how it could happen. I agree there is a lot of misinformation out there! Add the language thing to it, and you get breeding mumbojumbo:-)



  9. #9
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    I edited my original post as today I went across a THIRD seller/breeder who is using the term STATE PREMIUM mare for her Oldenburg NA Premium approved mare (trakehner mare by Feuertanzer).

    That kind of misinformation must have begun somewhere, I can't believe 3 different people decided to start to name their ISR Oldenburg-NA Premium mares "State Premium" or ST.Pr. out of the blue??
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  10. #10
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    Perhaps they are mistaking the Premium title Feuertazer achieved at his ATA inspection. His approval was later revoked from lack of a Performance test, but still a very good stallion non the less.
    The only place a mare can earn a Verband Premium (Pr. St.) or States Premium (St. Pr. St.) is in Germany with the various Verbands.
    I am not aware of any North America Warmblood Breeding organizations that use German titles and awards listed above. If the mare carries those titles in her name, she was awarded them in Germany and was henceforth imported. To say otherwise is incorrect.
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  11. #11
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    Exactly Shawnda. States Premium or Verband Premium are reserved to mares in Germany at time of inspection.

    North American divisions use different titles to differenciate from their German counterparts.
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  12. #12
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    You know, I am really not surprised by this. This is the same registry that has written its own rules on MMB eligibility, premium foal eligibility, approved stallion eligibility, stallion testing, etc., etc. - rules completely out of keeping with those established by or adhered to by the Oldenburg Verband and other German registries. And now its breeders are further riding the coattails of the German breeding system, by claiming their mares have "StPr" titles.



  13. #13
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    Spike - why don't you just drop an email to the Oldenburg NA registry and indicate the names of the horses and that you don't believe were bred in Germany and therefore would not have had the States Premium title? That would seem to be the logical place to start.

    All of the rules/regs for mares are available on line and clearly there is NO States Premium designation indicated. Perhaps the mare owners are mistaken or perhaps they are indicating something that isn't true.
    The reality is continuing to post on here makes no sense - just contact the registry or just forward the link to this thread to them.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    You know, I am really not surprised by this. This is the same registry that has written its own rules on MMB eligibility, premium foal eligibility, approved stallion eligibility, stallion testing, etc., etc. - rules completely out of keeping with those established by or adhered to by the Oldenburg Verband and other German registries. And now its breeders are further riding the coattails of the German breeding system, by claiming their mares have "StPr" titles.
    Please tell me that you are not actually suggesting that YOUR favorite registry does not have any breeders who make dumb mistakes? Whether this title was used knowingly or not, there is no reason to insult the registry and all those who use it.



  15. #15
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    Default

    How does a Verband Premium differ from States Premium? Is it a higher or lower predicate?



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinitySporthorses View Post
    Please tell me that you are not actually suggesting that YOUR favorite registry does not have any breeders who make dumb mistakes? Whether this title was used knowingly or not, there is no reason to insult the registry and all those who use it.
    LOL, I actually belong to several different registries. And, yep, there are folks in all of them that have made mistakes. However, the OP says she has come across THREE different ISR/ONA breeders referring to their ISR/ONA mares as "State Premium". So THREE different people are making the same "dumb mistake"? It is either a most remarkable coincidence, or they learned it from someone.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janeway View Post
    How does a Verband Premium differ from States Premium? Is it a higher or lower predicate?
    States Premium is the higher predicate - mares must earn a higher score in the MPT to qualify for the States Premium title.

    As posted earlier, the States Premium title is not awarded in North America. From the OHBS/GOV rulebook - "The term States Premium is connected to the German Government and any mares wishing to achieve States Premium must undertake the Mare Performance Test in Germany at the age of 3 or 4 years old to qualify for the mare championships in Rastede in July."



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    Not a higher or lower predicate. Different terminology for different LOCATIONS.

    Verbands Premium is a designation by the Oldenburg Verband - for North American mares.
    Sorry, this is not correct. Verband Premium is awarded in both Germany and in NA. I have several friends with imported mares that hold the VPS title. It is a lower predicate than States Premium (or Special Premium, as described below).

    As stated, only mares that have undertaken the MPT in Germany with qualifying scores are eligible for the States Premium title.

    Mares that complete the MPT in North America with qualifying scores are eligible for the title "Special Premium Mare". This title is awarded only in North America.

    For both the SPS and SPM titles, the mare must also produce an Oldenburg registered foal. Before that, they are known as States Premium Candidates (Germany) or Special Premium Candidates (North America).

    Will also mention that the titles are not based solely on the MPT score. The mare must be in the MMB, must have earned above average scores at her mare inspection, and must be deemed of suitable quality by the inspection committee to receive the Verband Premium, States Premium, or Special Premium title.



  19. #19
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    Spike - why don't you just drop an email to the Oldenburg NA registry (...) That would seem to be the logical place to start.
    Thanks. I tought of it and already did it. But without naming anyone as I don't think they are doing it on purpose. I wrote that I think there's a comprehension problem in Quebec about the Premium and star awards and about the way of marketing the mares that have earned it. Probably mostly caused by the language barrier... I've also sent an email to one of those breeders as I met her once. I tried to be the most polite possible, I'm not on Earth to make ennemies

    I don't want to start a debate about good or bad faith here. Thanks for those who commented, I think now it is to the ISR Oldenburg-NA to clarify with their members how to properly attach the Premium award to the name of the mares who've earned it as well as the star award system, and perhaps, to give a reminder. If they don't, well, there's not so much we can do. I just feel bad for those breeders as it looks incorrect and it affect their credibility in front of the people who can tell that the St.Pr. cannot be for their mares.
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