[tikidoc]

This:

I'm sick of hearing the argument, "You can't ride the papers." This is ridiculous.

Having papers is about knowing a horse's identity, age, and history, all of which are completely pertinent to its value.

I think that many H/J trainers have worked hard to perpetuate a disdain for the importance of papers in their world because it makes it convenient for them to be able to give horses new identities and new ages, to limit a new owner's ability to track down/talk to past owners, and obscure other parts of a horse's history that might decrease it's value.

And this:

Raise your hand if you think this horse DOES have an owner, who will be paid 1/3 of what the trainers are asking.

Raise your other hand if you think they've been paying training board for the duration of OP's lease too.

For that kind of money, I would want papers (and therefore documented history), potential breeding animal or not. This trainer sets off alarm bells all over the place.

[TPF Hunter]

Raise your hand if you think this horse DOES have an owner, who will be paid 1/3 of what the trainers are asking.

Raise your other hand if you think they've been paying training board for the duration of OP's lease too.

BINGO! Exactly what was crossing my mind.

IF in fact this trainer/owner actually owns the horse they should be able to tell you WHO they bought the horse from at least and have contact information. I would think that a good trainer would actually WANT to help track down this history etc etc

TRY THIS:
Pretend you may not be interested in the horse anymore and watch your trainers reaction. If they are pushy pushy... like fishy pushy.. then something is obviously up. Keep him/her wondering if you are in fact still interested and see where it goes from there.

One more thing... OP, if you have leased him for the past 6 months then havent you been the one putting the miles on him to make him worth the six figures?

You very well might be paying to show/lease a horse that belongs to someone other than your trainer. You buy gelding for 90k.... trainer sends the REAL owner 20k and pockets the rest.

SKETCHY

[fairtheewell]

TPF nailed it in my opinion.

But, if you don't mind blowing the money and have to have that horse, go for it. Just make sure you CYA so that if there is an undisclosed glitch in the previous owner(s) transfer/ownership back in time...they can't somehow reclaim their horse....but as someone stated above, its probably not a stolen horse...just shady, greedy sellers.

PS What is on the coggins paperwork going back to when the horse was transported to the current facility? Might be worth checking.

[headsupheelsdown]

Perhaps it would be better to say "paperwork" and not just "papers". There are breed registration papers and there is also the other various "paperwork" involved with a horse. Show record being the biggest. Then the other paperwork such as vet records, the various paperwork involved with the importation, etc. If I am understanding the OP correctly, this horse has nothing at all that the OP can access....

[jumpytoo]

Heck if I had 90K to spend I would probably just go to Europe myself..

[vxf111]

It wouldn't bother me that he didn't have papers. It WOULD bother me that my trainers were being shady about it.

My thoughts exactly!

[Madeline]

Why? If the OTTB is nice enough, it could be worth far more than five figures. How can you possibly make a judgement on the value of a horse with the information provided? She said it has a show record from last year. For all we know, it was champion last year in the pregreens from FL to CC and back. It could be worth six figures and the trainer is cutting her a break on the price to keep it in the barn.
I don't know if it's worth the asking price, and you don't know either without seeing the horse. What I do know is that it is not worth any less money because it has no papers, the buyer has had six months to decide to buy it, and the trainer is both familiar with the horse and desires to keep it in the barn by selling it to an in-house client. That's a lower risk purchase than about 80% of horse sales and hanging up over a piece of paper is not smart under those circumstances in my opinion. Of course the final decision is up to the buyer, but it sounds like they're on their way to having no horse and no trainer, when presumably for the past six months they've been happy with both the way the horse has been going and the trainer has been training. That's a lot to throw away for confirmation that you own a genuine imported Dutch Warmblood.

Few things in this world are predictable. The sun comes up in the east and CBoylen will come to the defense of the trainer, no matter how shabbily they seem to be behaving at the time.

[quietann]

SA Mckee..it's not the lack of papers, it's the lack of show record history that matters.

Also, the trainer is being evasive and shady about the horse's past. That in itself says "WALK AWAY NOW" especially for a horse that expensive.

[Kareen]

I'd be extremely po'd with trainer by now. First of all any reputable trainer wouldn't attempt selling you a horse without documentation of ownership (of some sort!).
Quite possible the passport has in fact gone astray. But if it has there are means to retrieve it (that is if anybody bothers which any reasonable new owner would don't you think?)
And even if whoever the owner might have been at that point didn't bother to have the papers reissued there should at least be a bill of sale to clarify the horse's whereabouts and most important prove legal ownership.
Over the years I've learned to apply a great deal of caution in taking anything a person with a substantial economic interest states.
It's sad but true financial interest sends many ethical concerns overboard for many people especially if your chance of ever verifying anything they say borders zero

Whether or not the horse has a super pedigree or even whether it is in fact an imported horse wouldn't bother me so much. Afterall you're not riding the papers and in a gelding pedigree matters nothing once a certain level of training / individual performance has been reached.

My core concern would be do they really own the horse and if so why are they getting p**** with you for asking about papers. Age is one concern but if this horse was indeed offered to you by someone else but the legal owner you could be risking losing both the horse and your money (at least over here, I'm sure there are similar regulations in the US that if you buy stolen goods it's tough luck but you lose them).

Hope the situation will clarify quickly.

[CBoylen]

Someone might as well, Madeline. Everyone else wants to jump to the conclusion that there is something shady going on, make unsupportable statements about the suitability of the horse, and send the poster off in search of another horse and another trainer, with no real knowledge of any facts, when there aren't all that many good horses out there and her training situation has been satisfactory to her thus far. To me, that's insane.
The trainer might be a complete jerk and the horse a geriatric POS. But, the horse might also be the right match for a hard to mount client who has been successfully riding him for six months, and there is some poor trainer out there who reacted in exasperation when that client started to backpedal after scheduling the vet check.
Plus, everyone is responding like a high five figure horse is something that requires an extensive show record and must be imported. Many horses in this price range have not shown at all, and many in the next price range have no papers or are domestically bred. The price doesn't signify.

[Linny]

To be perfectly honest, if someone did this with a horse that I was selling, I would refuse to sell the horse to them. Actually, if they posted a picture on a bulletin board and was asking people what they thought of the horse, I wouldn't sell it to them. Reason? I figure if the person doesn't know enough to make up their own mind then I don't want to deal with them. The age of the internet is fine, but I do not like the way people are using it. If I have a buyer wanting to know back history on a horse, I want said buyer to ask me--and to ask me if it is alright for them to contact previous owner. Sometimes previous owners do not want to be contacted by people down the line--I have sold horses for people like this. Sometimes previous owners don't mind. If I have a previous owner that won't mind talking to a potential buyer, I'll send the buyer their way. But searching it out on the internet without having the courtesy to ask me is a quick way for them to be turned down on the sale by me; likewise, me seeing a horse I am selling posted on a public bulletin board asking people to pick it apart based on a photo that may or may not be a good one is also a quick way to stop me from selling the person that horse.

If my trainer and I look at a horse, I want her opinion. I want her knowledge of the local horse scene and possibly the seller as a guide. I want her opinion after she rides the horse. That said, if the purchase is for "nealy 6 figures" and the seller IS the trainer it's very valid to ask for opinions, especially when red flags are being raised. I have seen so many disasters when the client is buying from the trainer because suddenly the client's best interests conflict with the trainer's.

Yes, the OP knows and loves the horse but it appears that as soon as purchasing came up the trainer got a little shady. A nearly 6 fig horse with a limited record better have won some very big classes. No you don't ride the papers but with a limited show record papers have more meaning. Is he well bred? Is he the age he's said to be? Has he a record with a different trainer under a different name? Could that record alter his price were it known? Could the papers reveal somethng that might make the horse uninsurable or insurable only for lower value or at higher cost?

I agree with asking around before spending that much, especially with so many red flags. Can the OP get info on this horse from other local pro's? Has the horse been listed publicly with a price? If so, have there been any nibbles at that price? I also tend to wonder is trainer is the "owner" or if trainer is representing someone.

Since I work in racing, where papers must be on file at the track where a horse is to run and where paperwork is so vital, I find it hard to believe that a 6 figure show horse could have such a shady history. I can see if he was a grade horse, never registered with a breed association, but this is said to be an import who should have a record of importation if nothing else.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Wow, I have not read every post on this thread, but I am kinda shocked at what is being said.

I AM a breeder, but you buy the horse in front of you, papers or not - especially if you have known it for 6 months!!

Would I try to find any type of history? sure. I would try to find the pedigree, etc, but the bottom line is, would the horse be a good fit for what I was looking for, and does the quality of the horse justify the price.

[EqTrainer]

FWIW, OP, a good sales contract includes, amongst other things, that the seller has the legal right to sell the horse and that the ownership of the horse is free and clear of any liens or judgements.

[allintexas]

If I'm buying a gelding for that price, I want to know (via a show record) what he can do. The papers are only a point of interest, since you can't breed a gelding anyway - they mean nothing if the horse isn't competitive in your area of sport. If the horse moves a 10 and jumps the moon, the papers still don't matter much. You can't ride papers.

Now, the behavior of the trainers involved would have me seriously questioning their ethics and what they are trying to pull off. I would also worry about what sort of management the horse has been getting, since they want to sell it to you for a pretty penny.

I agree with this. I would be leery also. Even if the horse is perfect for you, you need to know its age and show record, need to know they are truly the owners, and will need papers for resale at that type of price.

[meupatdoes]

I AM a breeder, but you buy the horse in front of you, papers or not - especially if you have known it for 6 months!!

Yes you buy the horse in front of you. I personally do not give a rat's patootie about the breed of a horse if it can do the job. I don't even ASK what breed anything is when I go looking.

But.
You also make sure there isn't a hole a mile flipping wide for a trainer to drive their Shady Mc Shady Train through your transaction and take you for $50,000+. Just because YOU personally may like the horse $80,000 much does not mean the trainer should get to pay out $25k to the seller and quietly pocket $55k for themselves for doing you such a big favor to find you a horse. (Shocking to some, I know.) Who knows if that is really what they are doing, but they certainly are not doing a very good job of assuring you that it is NOT what they are doing.

It is not the only horse in the universe, there are plenty of others available with far fewer question marks. Try seeing what they do if you present to them several horses where the price is disclosed on the sale ad. Or a horse where you have already quietly found out the price from the seller but your trainer doesn't know you know it. See what happens.

When high five figures are involved it is not the time to obligingly stick your head in the sand like a good little customer and sing kum ba ya and assume that everyone else is out for your besty bestest interests just because they like you so much.

[convertedhorselover]

Let's assume that your vet is also in the horse breeding/selling business. Are there many on this board that would have that same vet do a PPE on the horse that you were buyng from him/her? I have no idea if your trainer is honest but why not get another sales agent involved for this specific transaction. It should not harm your relationship with your existing trainer. All you would be saying is that in this special circumstance there may be a conflict of interest. There are many very capable individuals that I am sure could help.

[caffeinated]

Plus, everyone is responding like a high five figure horse is something that requires an extensive show record ... Many horses in this price range have not shown at all

And that is why I will never get anywhere in the H/J world, apparently.

Sorry, having extreme difficulty imagining spending close to 6 figures on an animal that only has a short show record. It's just unfathomable to me. But then again, so is quite a bit of what goes on in hunterjumperland.

[Linny]

I'd want the sales contract to include the trainers full description of the horse, not just "grey warmblood known as X." I'd want him described as imported, I'd want the name of the person they got him from etc. I'd also want a clause voiding the sale if ANY misrepresentation is discovered.
Funny how "paperwork" often shows up after the check clears. New owner calls person named as prior owner only to find that he was bred by "a lady in Kansas, I don't recall the name or his sire." Prior owner then mentions how lovely a prospect he was until he had to have colic surgery and became uninsurable. He did manage to show his pre-green year, earning points in several rated shows while showing as "ABC."
Now you have a horse that has "bad points" for the pre green division he's been winning in and who is not registered with any breed. H may or may not be the age stated. If he colics, he's a very high risk and if the insurance company learns of the prior surgery, you'll have no coverage for your 6 fig horse.

It's one thing if this was a less expensive sale. At "nearly 6 figs" it's a significant risk.

[meupatdoes]

And that is why I will never get anywhere in the H/J world, apparently.

Sorry, having extreme difficulty imagining spending close to 6 figures on an animal that only has a short show record. It's just unfathomable to me. But then again, so is quite a bit of what goes on in hunterjumperland.

There are also plenty of horses that come across the pond for $35k or less with no show record who with the proper lipstick and the proper representation can easily sell for high five figures. It is not necessary to spend high five figures to get your foot in the door, but what you don't spend in cash you have to make up for in skill, work and savvy.

Spend the money so you don't have to do the work or take as much risk, or do the workand take more risk so you don't have to spend the (or as much) money.

Either way, this one individual high five figure horse with an unclear history is not actually REQUIRED to happily show in the hunters.

[supershorty628]

@Linny, colic surgery doesn't [always] make them uninsurable. I say always because I don't know about all insurance companies, but I know my mare was still covered by ours after her surgery.