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  1. #1
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    Mar. 8, 2010
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    49

    Default Jazz

    Is anyone aware if Jazz throws offspring with shivers?



  2. #2
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    Dec. 2, 2008
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    Ont, Can
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    Although some research suggests that shivers (which is often confused with stringhalt and other neuro isses) is inherited or has a hereditary predisposition it has not been fully proven, a familial tendency is often just suspected.

    From my experience with modern dressage warmbloods it is more of a "body type" and "way of moving" that seems most prone to it; not a certain bloodline or breed. The "neuro" afflicted horses that I have personally seen have all varied in bloodlines (Sandro Hit, Quattro B, Voltaire etc) and specific diagnosises. The one thing they all did have in common is their very large body frames and very extravagant movement.

    In regards to Jazz specifically, I remember seeing Aat Van Essen and Premier (by Jazz) at the 2010 WDM in Palm Beach, a beautiful GP horse... with some unfortunate hind end issues at the walk. Aat does a very good gob of controling and quieting it under saddle but when you saw the horse walking in hand it was quite startling. Video of him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehibmc0W9RA (walk starts around the 4 min mark).

    I find the whole topic very interesting.



  3. #3
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    Sep. 11, 2007
    Location
    Oh Canada!
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    238

    Default

    just watched the video of Premier mentionned above - now what would you call that at the walk? i'm assuming it would be marked way down? could they ring out the horse for lameness since it's not really a lameness but still a fault in the gait?



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2002
    Location
    Waterford, VA USA
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    4,969

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pasturepal View Post
    Is anyone aware if Jazz throws offspring with shivers?
    I've been breeding Dutch riding horses for a long, long time now and my first Jazz offspring is 13 years old , but I have never heard or experienced what you're implying. Could you please share the source of your "information"?
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2010
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    49

    Default

    I am not implying anything - I am asking a question. On another site there was a discussion of stallions and an individual mentioned they had seen many Jazz and loved their movement even though half of them had shivers. As it turns out, I do have a Jazz who has shivers. I had never heard of this either - thought it was just a random thing. Wondered if it was factual, common knowledge amongst others or what? I was also told it is inheritable - don't know is that is true or not. By the way - love, love, love my Jazz - smart, smart, smart - awesome personality and phenomenal mover. Enjoying watching his development.
    Last edited by pasturepal; Mar. 28, 2012 at 06:38 PM. Reason: more information



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2007
    Location
    San Jose, Ca
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    6,254

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emy View Post

    In regards to Jazz specifically, I remember seeing Aat Van Essen and Premier (by Jazz) at the 2010 WDM in Palm Beach, a beautiful GP horse... with some unfortunate hind end issues at the walk. Aat does a very good gob of controling and quieting it under saddle but when you saw the horse walking in hand it was quite startling. Video of him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehibmc0W9RA (walk starts around the 4 min mark).

    I find the whole topic very interesting.
    Wow, that is interesting! To my untrained eye I would have thought the horse as "off" ie lame. Is he stepping shorter with the non white leg, or is that just an optical illusion?



  7. #7
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    Dec. 2, 2002
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    Waterford, VA USA
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    Default

    pasturepal - I'm sorry if I came across a little strong in my response.... it just irks me when rumors about stallions get started and then all of a sudden they become "truth".

    Jazz has sired (and continues to sire) an incredible amount of offspring because a large portion of them do extremely well in the sport. I don't necessarily agree to use one stallion to such an extent, but then who am I to tell his owners what to do. Now given the fact that there are so many Jazz kids out there, chances are that some of them will suffer from a variety of diseases/conditions since there really is no control over what mares are being used. For some reason folks like to attribute any faults with their foals to the stallion because that is the name everybody recognizes, never mind that the mare may have been a conformational nightmare.

    Jazz himself competed well into his teens and to this day (at 21 years) presents completely sound.

    Just my opinion....

    Emy - great post!!
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2005
    Location
    Some where in the middle of nowhere.
    Posts
    3,743

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emy View Post
    Although some research suggests that shivers (which is often confused with stringhalt and other neuro isses) is inherited or has a hereditary predisposition it has not been fully proven, a familial tendency is often just suspected.

    From my experience with modern dressage warmbloods it is more of a "body type" and "way of moving" that seems most prone to it; not a certain bloodline or breed. The "neuro" afflicted horses that I have personally seen have all varied in bloodlines (Sandro Hit, Quattro B, Voltaire etc) and specific diagnosises. The one thing they all did have in common is their very large body frames and very extravagant movement.

    In regards to Jazz specifically, I remember seeing Aat Van Essen and Premier (by Jazz) at the 2010 WDM in Palm Beach, a beautiful GP horse... with some unfortunate hind end issues at the walk. Aat does a very good gob of controling and quieting it under saddle but when you saw the horse walking in hand it was quite startling. Video of him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehibmc0W9RA (walk starts around the 4 min mark).

    I find the whole topic very interesting.

    It certainly would make sense that the pheontype that you spoke of could have neuro or neuro musculature issues. I think especially given the theme to breed for the extravagance and looseness at the same time couple with longer necks in a more upright frame(can you say ASB). Its that exact frame that has been linked to things like CVM because of neck conformation.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,470

    Default

    I would think that they would consider that an unsoundness, but I am no expert. I know that stringhalt is considered an unsoundness and it resembles that. That doesn't mean they are in pain.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2008
    Location
    Ont, Can
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    436

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorienna View Post
    just watched the video of Premier mentioned above - now what would you call that at the walk? i'm assuming it would be marked way down? could they ring out the horse for lameness since it's not really a lameness but still a fault in the gait?
    I think the term "irregularity" would be used to describe the string-haltesque like motion of Premier’s walk rather than "lameness". In the test that I saw in 2010, the live score showed the judges gave him 2’s, 3's and 4's for the walk and it also badly affected his overall gait score. The halt-rein back was a disaster and made you wince watching it yet the horse trotted out perfectly sound. He would have just passed a stringent FEI Jog and vet exam at a International 5 Star CDI competition. I think that is the real indignity about these issues, generally they don‘t truly surface (riders, vets and grooms may see warning signs in young horses) until these very talented, huge moving horses are middle-aged and then quite far along in their training with time, money, effort and love into them when they begin the downhill slide. I think pasturepal would agree that a lot of these horses are amazing, above average horses in all other regards.

    Quote Originally Posted by hackinaround View Post
    It certainly would make sense that the pheontype that you spoke of could have neuro or neuro musculature issues. I think especially given the theme to breed for the extravagance and looseness at the same time couple with longer necks in a more upright frame(can you say ASB). Its that exact frame that has been linked to things like CVM because of neck conformation.
    I think that is what I find so interesting about the topic. I work for a vet and it is shocking how little is known about the causes of string-halt, shivers, ataxia etc. From a breeding perspective I find it intriguing as it seems a fine line to toe as we try to create the best athletes possible with large, loose movement and when it works, it works. Case in point; Paragon. Very much the picture of the exact phenotype we speak of and quickly becoming one of the most successful NA bred dressage horses - ever.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2010
    Posts
    49

    Default

    I don't necessarily think of shivers as bad or good. I do think some of the best horses in the world have shivers and it works to thier advantage. I never thought of it as a lameness either. I was always under the understanding that in competition it was the difference between head bobbing or not that got you rung out. Otherwise it was termed irregularity. But I don't consider myself an expert by any means. My orginal question was simply of curiosity wether this was something passed on by Jazz and maybe why he has so many successful upper level offspring.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar. 11, 1999
    Location
    Clayton, CA USA
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    5,161

    Default

    I have a friend who is convinced that a popular stallion in my area, whose phenotype matches your description and who competes at the FEI level, throws offspring with shivers. She can point to several examples, and she owns two. It would be interesting to know if there is a genetic component.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



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