The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 30, 2007
    Location
    RI
    Posts
    53

    Question Anglo Arab Stallions

    I have been looking for Anglo Arab breeders in the US. But so far have found very few and almost none of them seem to breed the quality that I am looking for.

    I am looking for (Ideally) a young Anglo Arab colt / stud dressage or eventing prospect. But if I have to, I would like to find a great Anglo Arab stallion that I could breed to my own mare.

    Does anyone know of any Anglo Arab sport horse breeders in the US or Canada???

    I feel like this search is like trying to find a needle in a haystack!

    Thanks in advance for the help.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2010
    Location
    under water, most of the time
    Posts
    237

    Default

    If you mean AA stallions of the French variety (i.e., not an F1 cross between an Arabian and a Thoroughbred), I know of three, all available frozen:

    1. Virginia Tech stood Baladin d'Oc, who died in 2010. I do not know if frozen is still available from him, but it might be. If you search these threads for an auction of some former VT horses (it is a recent post), there were potentially two Baladin yearlings for sale - here it is: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh....php?t=346591;

    2. Michael and Natalie Bouckaert-Pollard stand Querdolan Vitarel, a French AA ridden by Bettina Hoy in Europe. My understanding is that the Pollards have frozen available in the U.S. Video here;

    3. Bonaparte N, an AA approved in Holstein, Hanover, and for the Trakehner Verband, is available frozen through Superior Equine Sires in the U.S. We recently purchased two doses from him for a 2013 foal. I really, really like this stallion. Stallion page and video here.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    20,350

    Default

    PF is right. Anglo Arab means two different things. If what you are talking about is the TB x Arab F1 cross, allanglos who posts on COTH breeds them.

    If you are talking about the French registry/breed Anglo Arab (AA) in its various flavors, they are few and far between in the US. PF may have identified the only ones here.

    This is a very interesting website all about the Anglo Arab.
    http://www.anglo-arabians.com
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2010
    Posts
    1,986

    Default

    And one reason you don't see so many of them in the US is that the Arab show circuit only allows F-1 crosses, so that limits the market potential.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 10, 1999
    Location
    Talk Derby to Me
    Posts
    2,334

    Default

    AA's can be up 75% TB and still show AHA. They're different than half-Arabs. Have you seen Laura Wood's horses? http://www.allanglos.net/
    Still Crazy After All These Years



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2007
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
    And one reason you don't see so many of them in the US is that the Arab show circuit only allows F-1 crosses, so that limits the market potential.
    Actually Anglos have different rules to the HA. They can be 3/4 TB or 3/4 Arabian.

    Mortazavi Farm in Lincoln, CA breeds a few AA's. She has her TB mare in the foaling stall currently waiting the arrival of her AA baby. The baby daddy is Mirage V+++//.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2010
    Posts
    1,986

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stripes View Post
    Actually Anglos have different rules to the HA. They can be 3/4 TB or 3/4 Arabian.

    Mortazavi Farm in Lincoln, CA breeds a few AA's. She has her TB mare in the foaling stall currently waiting the arrival of her AA baby. The baby daddy is Mirage V+++//.
    Oh, that is good to know!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2003
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    742

    Default

    I would like to put in a very strong vote for Bonaparte N AA. He has what I like best - the Arabian part is Shagya blood, the best there is/was. his performance record is outstanding, and he's now 16 and still running.

    I bred a filly last year, she is one of only 2 Trakehner foals by him in Germany (probably the world ;-) last year, before he was fully approved (I got a special breeding permit based on his performance record). This filly, Takenoko, has a dam that is 50% TB through her dam (Motley xx) and 50% Trakehner through her sire, the international *** eventer El Greco TSF.

    Pedigree of the dam: http://www.gestuet-majenfelderhof.de..._topten_e.html

    Filly has the personality of a man-eater (in a good way) and moves very well for any horse, but with this amount of blood, pretty unqiue (I did not expect that at all, didn't "breed for it", this is just icing on the cake). She scored premium marks at her inspection last summer (again, don't really care about it, but since this was a warmblood commission it gives you some impression), and she is now a gangly guly duckling yearling that still moves like a dream (to me). Video here (aways from her buddies for the first time since winter, but even with her tail up in the air, she still uses her back and hind end well enough).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vARJk0_FcJ8 (at around 1:16 she stops playing stupid, but if you want to see a capriole that would make a Lipizan blush plus sound effect, see the beginning ;-)

    Bonaparte maintained mom's bone and size, added some lightness and the filly is a feisty little creature, definitely different than mom (not sure though if you can attach to Bonaparte, I'm not so much into temperament "genetics"). All the rest we need to see. He did NOT make her a grey, which I personally mourn over, but oh well.

    Good luck with your search!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2010
    Location
    under water, most of the time
    Posts
    237

    Default

    Maren - what a nice filly! Thanks for sharing; as I understand it, he doesn't have too many foals on the ground due to his competition obligations, so any offspring video is welcome.

    As I mentioned, we've bought semen for a 2013 foal (eventing focus) -- the footage from the Hamburg Derby is what cinched it for me.

    Best, PF



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2010
    Location
    under water, most of the time
    Posts
    237

    Default

    I don't want to hijack, but this is sort of on-topic -- Vineyridge, would you mind commenting about Bonaparte N's Tb background?

    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bonaparte+n

    For a head start, I believe he's Mare Family 11 (Sedbury Royal Mare), and has 17 crosses to Dark Ronald and 21 crosses to Bay Ronald through 10 generations. He's linebred 2x3 to the mare Maerchenfee, a daughter of Vierzehnender, who I understand has produced a number of international competitors, but I am not up on the particulars. Maerchenfee is also heavily linebred to Teddy, through the mare Morgenbluete. Any elaboration would be great, and thanks as always.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    20,350

    Default

    Hill Hawk xx was exported to Germany and used in WB breeding. His Oldenburg daughter, Cileste, was the dam of all the Welt Hits--and there were 6 of them. All of his get that I can find are pure dressage, except for a Holsteiner daughter's daughter who was a jumper in 1999 with Piet Raijmakers, who I'm pure sure is a Dutch BNR; and Hill Anwar. He had a Hannoverian approved son named Hitchcock, who is the sire of dressage horses.

    Hill Anwar is registered as an Anglo Arab, but I don't know if that means the French Registry or something special to Germany. He has a German AA stallion son named Hill Dancer N, who has gotten a 1 & 2* horse, now with a young rider, named Hill Dream. As damsire, he's got Benedict N, who was was an event horse himself at the FEI level. Benedict N got as high as 3* with a Dutchman named Phiel Plijnaar. Horse did lots of CIC3*s, but never completed a CCI at that level. He really doesn't seem to have been a CCI horse at all. He was 32nd in his one try at a CCI2*, which is odd because you'd think the Arab half would make the added distance irrelevant. He did win a CCI 1*, for his only win, but he's got several top ten placings. His last FEI run was in 2006 at the Boekelo ccI3*, and he was eliminated. Hasn't run since at any level. He apparently started his career as an event horse back in about 1999.

    Hill Anwar is damsire of another AA stallion named Darolan Double Trouble who has got one 1* event horse.

    Interesting that Hill Hawk, except for the AAs, is found almost exclusively in "pure" dressage horses. Bodes well for that phase, doesn't it?

    Desert Love's sire Honoured Guest was the sire of an event horse who went to the European championships, the Olympics, and the WEGs for Switzerland. Horse's name was Gai Jeannot CH. After he retired from the big leagues, he trucked a junior around.

    Sir Ivor needs no discussion, but Nagaika warrants a separate mention. She was also the dam of the TB stallion, Connaught by St. Paddy. Connaught is damsire of the Swedish TB stallion Golden Profit, who evented and has an AA eventing son in Sweden. Connaught is also damsire of a couple of event horses who have gone to the Euro Champs for Young Riders for different countries.

    Maerchenfee doesn't appear in my European Produce Reports, so it's likely that she was used exclusively for AA breeding in Germany. Before going on, her pedigree is interesting in that she has lines to three different Teddy sons--Ortello, Asterus, and Aventin. It's also interesting in that she has a sex balanced top and bottom double to Prunus, but neither line is to his world famous son, Oleander. I actually don't recall seeing Prunus before without going through Oleander. So just as a point of interest, that's one huge one. And thanks for this, since I just realized that Graf Ferry is yet another European stallion from the turn of the century who had a United States TB mare line with quite a few non-GSB mares--including Hunting Squirrel (~1750s) who was an import from Spain or the Spanish Colonies.

    Vierzehnender: Sire line is Neckar/Ticino. Staples in German TBs and WBs, and especially good for movement, per William Micklem. Neckar is tail female to the Tesio bred mare, Nera di Bicci, who is out of Catnip, Nogara's dam (which gets you back again to more U.S. non-GSB lines in European thoroughbreds.) That makes her the aunt of Nearco and Niccolo dell'arca. Nera di Bicci is an excellent dam line, both in Germany and in Italy, but I've read that she is pretty much gone in the current German TB population tail female. Interestingly, her sire by is Orby, another turn of the century European TB stallion with a U.S damline with some non-GSB lines in the beginning. (Do you suppose Tesio liked outcrossing with American lines?)

    Vierzehnender was the sire of El Paso, a German event horse gelding who represented them at the European Championships in 1977 and 1979. He was the sire of QUICK STAR xx who has four licensed stallion sons, three BaWu and one Bayern. One of Quick Star's daughters, Quicky, was a Z level jumper and and also did dressage at the Z2 level. Most of Quick Star xx's descendants have been jumpers, but a number also did dressage. There are a number of approved stallions through his sons' daughters as well. The Quick Star xx FEI level descendants that I can find have been eventers, though. Quick Star xx is the only stallion son of Vierzehnender with FEI level descendants. All the rest come from Vierzehnender's daughters.

    Vierzehnender as damsire:
    Gustav, who represented Canada in Show Jumping at the 1990 WEG.

    Olympic Dondolo represented Australia as an individual in the 1992 Olympics in Dressage, was ridden by Sven Rothenberger in the 1994 WEG for the Netherlands, and then went to the 1996 Olympics and the 1998 WEG with a Dutch rider who appears to be his sister (?) Gonnelien Rothenberger-Gordijn.

    Bouquet AA is the only stallion with FEI descendants who has Vierzehnender as damsire.

    Vierzehnender as 2nd damsire:
    Fiona 335--current junior dressage horse.

    He's the fifth damsire of Bergerac 9, a Hannoverian licensed dressage horse who went to the Young Horse World Championships (Verden) in 2010.

    3rd damsire through Dascha/Santa Fee of a show jumper and Westfalian licensed stallion, Paramo K, who was showed by Franke Sloothaak.

    2nd damsire of an Oldenburger named Granada who is the second dam of the Heraldik stallion son, Hyperion who has evented with the Ostholts. He didn't get very high, and seems to have vanished. He was a 2001, ran 5 FEI level events in 2008, and then disappeared from FEI records. Eliminated in his only 2*. Granada has a Hanoverian licensed son named Vulkano FRH who was one of Marcus Ehning's 1.60 meter horses and was VERY good. This guy last showed up in 2009. Granada's daughter, Athletica, is the dam of King Kobold, SJ, who used to be with Jos Lansinki, and is now showing in the US with Lauren Tisbo. This is a 1.60 meter horse.

    3nd damsire of Ilotte, who is the dam of Plot Blue and Oklund, both stallions and both 1.60 meter horses. (Both have a TB damline from a Vierzehnender daughter.) Dascha and Ilotte are out of the mare, Santa Fee; there is another Santa Fee daughter named Weica, who is the dam of a mare named Pershing 23 who went to the WEG for Switzerland in 2002 and then moved to Peter Charles, where she was on the winning British Team in the 2003 Aachen Nation's Cup. Another 1.60 meter horse. Do we get the feeling that Santa Fee was a damned fine jumping broodmare line for jumpers? And it's tail female TB

    3rd dam sire of Ronja, dam of the Oldenburger dressage stallion Piko Bello who went to Verden in 2002.

    3rd damsire of yet another dam of Oldenburger dressage stallions. Quando-Quando went to Hong Kong with a Australian dressage rider. His half sister is the dam of the 2005 approved Oldenburger stallion, Quarterline and the 2008 approved Oldenburger stallion, Balarino.

    Honestly I wasn't aware of Vierzhenender until I looked this up, but he seems to be an excellent multi-purpose Thoroughbred line in German Warmbloods, with some very high level descendants. Very few event horses, though, considering.

    It's Maerchenfee's dam who has all the Teddy sons.

    Aventin is the grandsire of Stern xx who has numerous Trakehner descendants with FEI level credentials. He's also the sire of Marcio xx who has numerous Hannoverian descendants with FEI level credentials. Sire of Reinald xx who is present in Holsteiners and Trakehners with FEI results. Damsire of Solali who was sent to Poland and has some eventers through both his TB descendants and his Polish WB descendants. Damsire of Traumgeist xx, who has lots of German WB descendants in Hannover, the Traks, and Holstein. His descendants do everything at the FEI level. Through a line of daughters, he is in the pedigree of the German TB stallion, Tempeltanz, and through him some recent Bavarian event horses.

    Ortello is the sire of the steeplechaser Sirte, and through him the Clavier line of US hunters. Ortello has a number of Italian TBs, including several sons, who have had FEI descendants. Allgaeu seems to have made no mark in sport horses, though.

    Asterus is everywhere in German sport horses. His two most famous stallion sons for sport are Magnat in Germany and Jock in France. Jock is in the lines of show jumpers in particular. Magnat is in the pedigrees of horses who have done just about everything.

    Maerchenfee's dam is as tightly linebred as any TB pedigree in sport that I've seen lately. If the purpose was to reduce genetic drift, the breeders certainly should have succeeded, what with all the Teddy and Dark Ronald.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Mar. 26, 2012 at 07:30 PM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2003
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    742

    Default

    Here is a look at the more proximal Bonaparte N AA pedigree:

    http://www.gestuet-majenfelderhof.de...naparte_e.html

    Vineridge asked the question about long format performance of Benedict N and that he hasn't done muc since 2006. First reason is he died right about then and was fairly young. Second reason in a fairly constant switch in riders and disciplines and a not so convinced owner (long format sceptic).

    Indication of long format horses in this male line is the exceptional Shagya Bajar and his list of offspring competing in eventing, let's just name White Girl TSF as an example.

    A very important eventing link in the mare family of Vierzehender xx is Vollkorn xx, who was out of Vierzenhnender's maternal half sister by Ansitz xx. Vollkorn xx established a very good eventing line in oldenburg via Volturno (who competed internationally with Ottokar Pohlmann for Germany and was an approved stallion). The Vollkorn xx blood is sought after today, not easy to find, but some is around. The Trakehner breed's most popular sire with that blood is E.H. Connery. While used predominantly as a dressage sire, he does pop out the occasional high quality eventer (e.g. Charly Weld).

    Thanks for the feedback Peregrine Farm, and best of luck with the breeding. We used his frozen for his foal and it was excellent quality!!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2010
    Location
    under water, most of the time
    Posts
    237

    Default

    Viney, I hope you enjoy putting together these analyses as much as your audience enjoys reading them. Thanks again for the effort.

    I too noticed just how significantly Bonaparte's ancestors are linebred -- in addition to the heavy Teddy/Dark Ronald TB linebreeding with Maravilla, Bajar himself was the product of sibling parents -- his mother and father were both by the Shagya Sultan out of the Arabian mare Gama. It does appear that there is a conscious and heavy linebreeding effort throughout the pedigree, and it seems to have worked.

    Maren -- thanks again for the insight into Benedict. Not to hijack, but as your colleague Tom Reed has pointed out, North American breeders have historically often suffered from informational barriers that hinder our breeding efforts. Information such as you provide (usually not found in published materials) helps to overcome that to some extent -- my personal hope that is that these types of discussions increasingly become more global in scope for the benefit of all.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov. 12, 2008
    Posts
    818

    Default Bayview Farm

    Bayview Farm in Cape Charles Virginia has bred top Anglo Arabians and I believe has one or two for sale
    They don't have a stallion per se, but youngsters to well started to multiple year end high point champion usef horses.

    http://www.bayviewfarm.net/Home.html



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug. 19, 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Posts
    489

    Default

    Great to have all this insight from the experts! I hope you will keep us posted about your breeding efforts to Bonaparte, Peregrine Farm; Maren's filly is lovely, and I am eager to see more of Bonaparte's foals!

    Too bad Persiflage is not available in North America; he looks like quite the interesting potential event sire. The fact that his breeders bred the incredible Tamarillo suggests they probably know a thing or two about breeding quality event horses!

    http://www.biddesdenstud.co.uk/10632.html



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    20,350

    Default

    Maren, I'm a bit confused. CICs are a relatively new type of competition in eventing and I could get really snarky about what horses they are courses for. Before 2004 and the demise of Events with Steeplechase, I could see owners of those kinds of horse not particularly wanting to enter horse in "real" eventing. But since 2004, the only real differences between a CIC and a CCI are the length of XC, and the necessity for a jog ( fitness is considerably less important in CICs) if SJ is held before XC.

    Why would owners have an event horse and avoid CCIs these days? Although XC is longer, it's nowhere near long format. I've seen horses on the European continent who have done twenty or thirty FEI events up to the 3* level, and not one will be a CCI at anything other than 1*. Clearly these riders are not aiming for 4*s. Horses and riders stall out in CIC. I do know that the CIC is what the German FN would like top level eventing to be, but it is a lesser version of the "real" sport of Short Format CCIs and (at the moment) cannot lead to a championship in the open divisions. It's Eventing Lite. How could an sponsor or breeder or professional get satisfaction out of having a career limited to Eventing Lite?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2003
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    742

    Default

    Quote: How could an sponsor or breeder or professional get satisfaction out of having a career limited to Eventing Lite?

    That is too big a question to answer quickly (and quick is all the time I have right now, besides, I don't think I have an answer to this), and it would highjack this threat. In theory I'm right there with you.
    All I wanted to point out is that whatever format the Bajars et al ran, they did well at it, long, short, old time, modern, what have you. I don't know if you ever got to see a horse like White Girl TSF run, but it was an astonishing sight (the "will" to go forward). If you look closely at the Bonaparte video of the Hamburg Derby you will see a horse that happens to be shown SJ. I wonder what he would be able to develop with his drive and forwardness cross country .... he jumps very differently to the mass of big warmbloods in these classes, and there is hardly a more difficult course in the world than the HAM Derby. The way his face works, and his attack mode sold the deal for me on this stallion and I will most certainly use him again. That kind of attitude would not hurt an upper level event horse IMHO.

    Peregrine, Tradewind, thanks very much.

    Here is the other Trakehner Bonaparte foal of 2011, two were born, both received that useless premium title from the inspection group (again, I'm mentioning because this WB people looking at foals), and this second filly is out of a very strong show jumper line through her dam:

    http://www.trakehner-im-rheinland.de...nfee_3W-52.jpg

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-M...ennen-1660.jpg



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb. 16, 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,081

    Default

    I have a 10 month old Anglo Arabian colt for sale. His sire is the Hunter Champion, Jones Hall (deceased). His dam is a Champion Ben Rabba/*El Paso grandaughter. He is bay with four matching socks, belly white, and a blaze. He gets gelded Monday, so hurry.

    I also have an Anglo stallion (not for sale but available AI). 16.1H

    Or, I have a French Anglo Arabian mare available. She would excel in eventing. 16.2H. Same dam as the stallion.

    The first three photos are the Jones Hall colt. The last photo shows four Anglo Arabians out of the same TB mare (approved Selle Francais). The top left = 16.1H stallion. Top right = 16.3H French mare. Bottom left = 16.2H French mare (mentioned above). Bottom right = 16.1H mare (Sold).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RABBA-WEB2.JPG 
Views:	81 
Size:	132.3 KB 
ID:	35278   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RABBA IMG_7071 CROP WEB.JPG 
Views:	105 
Size:	134.2 KB 
ID:	35279   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RABBA-WEB1.JPG 
Views:	74 
Size:	121.0 KB 
ID:	35280   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cobalt, Tiny, Sneakerss, Updraft resized.jpg 
Views:	117 
Size:	159.1 KB 
ID:	35281  
    The Inverted Y
    Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
    2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.
    www.allanglos.net

    Hundreds of half priced champion stallions
    www.SHNpayback.org



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb. 8, 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Yes, I did mean the French-bred AA's. Particularly, anything that traces back to Matcho AA (but I am not holding my breath). I don't care at all for the US bred / F1 bred Anglo Arabs, as I can't find the quality that I am looking for.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    20,350

    Default

    You may have a problem finding Matcho AA in AAs these days. He's in many, many WB pedigrees because he was exported to Germany and used by the Hannoverians and Traks. I found one AA stallion son of his, Decoration, who was either exported to or from Germany.(?) Decoration did have some AA get, including a son named Baryt, but I'm not sure where Baryt stood. There was also another AA son of Matcho in Germany named Marquis who was approved as a Riding Pony stallion. Because of the German WB penchant for gelding F1 males and keeping the daughters to breed back into the registries stallions, you aren't going to find many Matcho AA sons, WB or AA, or Matcho in AAs--German OR French--these days. You are far more likely to find Matcho in WBs than AAs.

    I remember a thread here a while back where someone in Western Canada (BC?) had a vet who had access to Sarastro AC's frozen semen. Stallion is dead now, but was the l#1 ranked sire of French event horses shortly before his death. There may be some other French AA frozen in odd places like that. (Found it: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh....php?t=2726290)

    You might PM the original poster through COTH. Perhaps the vet still has Sarastro semen.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



Similar Threads

  1. Best place to advertise Anglo-Arab...
    By HCF in forum Dressage
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: Aug. 13, 2012, 05:31 PM
  2. anyone have an anglo-arab?
    By gallopinggal in forum Off Course
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: Jan. 1, 2012, 10:07 AM
  3. Free Anglo-Arab Mare (Spotsylvania, VA)
    By tbjmpr24 in forum Giveaways
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Mar. 9, 2010, 07:24 PM
  4. Is there a market for anglo arab stallions?
    By JackSprats Mom in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 83
    Last Post: May. 14, 2009, 08:37 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness