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  1. #21

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    We do ours in a way similar to Edgar. The booking fee is part of the initial contract and then mare owners have three seasons to achieve a foal. If it takes more than once no matter the reason, there is only a collection fee. We also give mare owners a full 14 day LFG. We WANT these foals on the ground and try to make sure that happens with the least amount of stress for all involved. I can't imagine the headache of a MWF collection schedule!i
    Cornerstone Equestrian
    Home of Amazing (Balou du Rouet/Voltaire) 2005 KWPN Stallion
    RPSI, KWPN reg B, and IHF nominated
    www.cornerstonefarmpa.com



  2. #22
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2008
    Location
    Panama City, FL
    Posts
    322

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    I too feel the booking fee is only to be thought of as a down payment on the stud fee, and didn't think anyone would ask for it every season.
    But after the two year contract is up, I would prefer to have the option to have an additional year or two for just another booking fee then to loose the breeding or have to pay the full stud fee.
    I don't like breding to stallion who have to go else where to be collected as these have been the most problematic for me.


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  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2008
    Posts
    1,656

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    And .... Edgar does not restrict collections to M-W-F, and his collection fee is very low. Not a contract with "hidden costs.



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2009
    Location
    Alberta's bread basket
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    1,665

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Well then you have not seen our breeding agreement. We use a booking fee when initially offering a discount and somebody can book and hold that discounted breeding fee of which the balance is then paid in full later in the year. The booking fee is just a part of the total breeding fee and more a down payment that guarantees the agreed upon discounted price than anything else. If the mare loses her foal or does not conceive we re-book without any additional charge or booking fee for the next spring.

    I find that it ads insult to injury when a mare owner pays for a breeding fee , vet etc. sometimes a hospital bill loses a foal and then has to pay me for part of the breeding fee again??? They pay the collection and shipping expense any time its shipped which is enough for me to make sure the initial goal is met. It is our and the mare owners goal to have a nice foal on the ground the year after the mare owner pays the breeding fee, not to cause more financial hardship on top of their bad luck if we can help it.
    Where is the thumbs UP icon??
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  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec. 20, 2010
    Posts
    616

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Well then you have not seen our breeding agreement. We use a booking fee when initially offering a discount and somebody can book and hold that discounted breeding fee of which the balance is then paid in full later in the year. The booking fee is just a part of the total breeding fee and more a down payment that guarantees the agreed upon discounted price than anything else. If the mare loses her foal or does not conceive we re-book without any additional charge or booking fee for the next spring.

    I find that it ads insult to injury when a mare owner pays for a breeding fee , vet etc. sometimes a hospital bill loses a foal and then has to pay me for part of the breeding fee again??? They pay the collection and shipping expense any time its shipped which is enough for me to make sure the initial goal is met. It is our and the mare owners goal to have a nice foal on the ground the year after the mare owner pays the breeding fee, not to cause more financial hardship on top of their bad luck if we can help it.
    I love this attitude! I'm very excited to see what type of foal I get next year.



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar. 11, 1999
    Location
    Clayton, CA USA
    Posts
    5,039

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    Quote Originally Posted by horsechick View Post
    I can't imagine the headache of a MWF collection schedule!i
    It is especially horrifying if the stallion is on the east coast and the mare is on the west coast. I would lie awake nights, trying to figure out how to coordinate ordering the semen, and whether I should try to get a more predictable cycle with hormones. Ultimately I sold the breeding; it was too much of a headache. So, a MWF is a total deal breaker for me, no matter how much I love to the stallion.

    I haven't ever had a contract that said I would have to pay another booking fee the following year if I had to rebreed. That would most likely be a deal breaker too.

    The stallion competing during the spring breeding season? Total non-starter.

    Edgar, your business practices and your willingness to go the distance are wonderful. There are other stallion owners out there like that too. Jennifer at Dreamscape drove five hours on a holiday to get semen I needed across the border.

    With the availability and ease of breeding with frozen semen, I am always surprised when stallion owners make breeding with fresh difficult.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    4,222

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    Well, I have used a stallion with a MWF collection schedule due to heavy competition schedule. The SO made her stallion available at every opportunity outside the MWF collections when at all possible. Really a great SO to deal with but I had called and talked to her prior to booking. As for the booking fee, she did not charge an additional booking fee if the mare did not catch the first year. Her goal was the same as mine, to get a foal on the ground. This would be Mary Slouka who owns Cunningham.

    What I don't care for is an "age limit" on a mare. Anything over that age specified by the SO comes with no LFG. Will not deal with that at all regardless to how much I like said stallion. 1 yr contracts are also contracts that cause me pause.

    Spy Coast Farm is very easy to work with and they stand stallions that are very busy competing on our circuit as well as in Europe. Lisa Lourie is wonderful at providing the stallions schedules and availability for fresh semen so MOs can plan. All of her stallions have excellent, proven frozen semen so that is a backup option if a MO decides to go that route. The contract is MO friendly and SCF has gone above and beyond for me!
    Last edited by ponygirl; Mar. 29, 2012 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Additional info
    "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."



  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr. 25, 2006
    Location
    out west
    Posts
    3,404

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    Is it the norm for contracts to tell you how many times you have to check for pregnancy? (3 to 4 times!?)

    I have bred my mare 3 times and that was never in a contract and I always only check once.

    That is an added expense I really am not thrilled about on a new stallion contract I just read.

    I will be contacting the stallion owner, but it is a surprise as I have not seen it in a contract before.

    By the time I pay the farm call 3 times and the checking, that's over $500 just doing that!



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan. 27, 2012
    Location
    Barboursville, VA
    Posts
    441

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samotis View Post
    Is it the norm for contracts to tell you how many times you have to check for pregnancy? (3 to 4 times!?)

    I have bred my mare 3 times and that was never in a contract and I always only check once.

    That is an added expense I really am not thrilled about on a new stallion contract I just read.

    I will be contacting the stallion owner, but it is a surprise as I have not seen it in a contract before.

    By the time I pay the farm call 3 times and the checking, that's over $500 just doing that!

    Unusual and not good business practice IMO

    Cheers
    Hyperion Stud, LLC.
    Europe's Finest, Made in America
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    Standing Elite and Approved Stallions



  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2012
    Posts
    667

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    I won't consider a stallion for any of the following reasons:
    A culture is required of my mare and must be submitted to SO
    Any booking fee
    Stud fee over 1500
    Container deposit - my vet handles the return anyway
    Pregnancy report required from vet
    Limited availability
    Substitution of another stallion instead of my money back.
    Additional 'collection fees' or handling fees

    Basically, I expect to pay 1 stud fee...thats it. My Fedex # covers shipping so there should be no other charges.


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  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2010
    Posts
    6,392

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    I've bred a few times, quite successfully. As others say, the contract is not a reason I choose, but it would make me pause. I number one choose what I think is the best stallion for the mare and has shown the ability to do the work and produce the work. As I have done this more, a big factor is working with the stallion owner. This makes a HUGE difference in success. And, if they are smart, they will do their best to get a foal on the ground no matter what, because that benefits them,

    I've worked with Jennifer and Dreamscape twice, and she is wonderful. The second time she offered me a discount right off because it was the second breeding. One time we worked around a holiday, and she just got it done. I will be working with Kathy this coming year, and her reputation is definitely a factor in the choice. I have not decided to go with some stallions because I can't get a response, videos, or whatever from them. If I'm having the issues just finding out information, they are not someone I think will do the best to get me the best semen. I'm sure Edgar is wonderful, too.

    By the way, not knowing much about Equitaners, Jennifer just uses a a disposable container for fresh. It seems pretty cheap and has worked very well. Is it just for frozen you're using the equitaner? I don't know if you can use the disposable for frozen.



  12. #32
    Join Date
    Apr. 25, 2006
    Location
    out west
    Posts
    3,404

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    I had my mare cultured after she took a few years off. She has been pregnant twice since then and haven't checked her again.

    Is that something you should do every year?

    I thought it was only an issue if your mare was having trouble getting pregnant meaning there could be something going on like an infection.

    I have some things to think about....



  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
    Location
    Charles Town, WV
    Posts
    6,637

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    I would think the booking fee, which is in reality a deposit on the total stud fee, is paid only once.
    I've seen ads where the stud fee was listed and booking fee included, but I've also seen ads with booking fee additional - sorry, skip on to the next stallion - even if the total might be the same as another stallion. Will absolutely NOT do the MWF thing for fresh, but I will use the stallion if I like him if frozen can be provided.

    I booked a stallion one year, had to postpone due to mare problems and told I would have to pay a booking fee the next year, or any subsequent year if the mare didn't catch. Lost the booking fee, will NEVER use that SO again - and he seems to be quite popular - can't imagine why.

    Undisclosed high collection fees! I was charged $359 and $410 for 2 separate collections and $210 and $133 for the respective shipping. Not what I was told the collection and shipping would be. Collection was done by a vet that some people absolutely rave about and state that he is THE BEST at breeding. Well, the first shipment was about 5% when it arrived and absolutely worthless. I will NEVER use a stallin whose SO uses that vet ever again.

    Been breeding for a long time and will also not breed to a stallion whose owner requires culture and cytology results, and sometimes a biopsy too, to be signed by the vet and sent to them. Uh uh, sorry, my vet knows a lot more than some of these SO's.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2008
    Posts
    1,656

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    I too resent contracts requiring multiple pregnancy checks. I am fine if they require a vet check for pregnancy status before the end of the breeding season - for instance, August 1st or 31st. Now that could be 15, 30 or 60 days post breeding - but it allows the stallion owner and mare owner to both know whether the mare was confirmed in foal before the breeding season ended. Why demand a check at 60 days if the breeding season ended 40 days ago?


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  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jan. 2, 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,189

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    MWF - deal breaker - also every other day collection is a deal breaker (counter to counter is expensive, especially when the airline lose the container)
    Repeat booking fees - will *always* check this one after 3 years of repeat fees (undisclosed).
    High collection fees - $400? Really?
    Pregnancy checks. I check at 15 and 30 and then I will not bother my mares unnecessarily. I do keep stallion owner informed of pregnancy status (ie here's a picture of my fat mare).
    Vet signing paperwork before breeding certificate (in foal, not in foal) - fair enough - but I *do* want a breeding certificate!!!!! Preferably before the foal is born!
    Cytology and culture - hmmm - I don't like it demanded but I'll never breed without one again (false economy in my opinion).
    Equitainer deposit - fair enough - but if I get a used disposable instead, I *will* go postal on you (not even a new disposable!!!!).



  16. #36
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2003
    Location
    Hunterdon County, NJ
    Posts
    3,047

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    So many good points have already been raised...

    One thing I've noticed is that more and more mare owners do their own inseminations, myself (frequently) included. I understand why there's generally a part of the contract stating that a vet must do all of the repro work, but I wish this could be somehow reworded. I always talk to a stallion owner about this beforehand and won't sign a contract if a stallion owner isn't comfortable with me doing the breeding if it comes down to that, but in my dream world it could be included in the contract as an option.

    I guess I'm one of the few who hasn't had a problem with limited collection days. Traditionally, my problem has always been on the other end; I dealt for years with a vet practice that didn't consider breeding "an emergency" and would only breed for me during banker's hours.
    Kendra
    Runningwater Warmbloods & Mare Station

    Home of SPS Diorella (Donnerhall/ Akut), EMC What Fun (Wolkentanz I/ Lauries Crusador), and EMC Raleska (Rascalino/ Warkant) 'Like' us on Facebook



  17. #37
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2012
    Posts
    667

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    I really resent collections fees. How can you sell me 'joy juice' without collecting it from the stallion?
    It's just a game of fees and more fees to inflate the stud price.


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  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jan. 2, 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,189

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticker View Post
    I really resent collections fees. How can you sell me 'joy juice' without collecting it from the stallion?
    It's just a game of fees and more fees to inflate the stud price.
    To be fair, many stallion owners have one stallion and haul to a facility to collect and process - this is a passing on of direct costs, so I don't think that's unreasonable, but anything somewhat over $250 is "padding"

    And collection isn't a one person job generally speaking so if you have multiple stallions you have staff to pay who are doing something that isn't an exclusive payroll item ie overhead (does that make sense?) and collections for each stud fee can be a one shot or 30 shot deal depending on vet/owner competence in great part.



  19. #39
    Join Date
    Dec. 20, 2010
    Posts
    616

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    For me, it's high collection fees and one of the first things I look at on a contract. I prefer $200 or below but will go to $250 for the right stallion. Anything higher and I just think it's too excessive. It should not cost $300-$400 to collect a stallion, I don't care who's doing it.
    A MWF schedule will also turn me off, it's hard enough to schedule things with mares who as we know, don't read the book, so I want as much in our favor as possible.
    I have to admit, Edgar spoiled me last year. We even had a successful first cycle insemination while working around a major holiday.
    As others have mentioned, I want to deal with SOs who give every impression that they are as driven to get a first cycle pregnancy as I am. Without breaking the bank in the process.



  20. #40
    Join Date
    Mar. 11, 1999
    Location
    Clayton, CA USA
    Posts
    5,039

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    One of the things I look at in a fresh contract is collection fees. If none are included, then I might as well add anywhere from $250 to $400 to the cost of the breeding, and that makes a difference in the studfee. If the first collection is included, it isn't a deal breaker to me to charge for subsequent collections.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



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