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  1. #1
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    Default Anti-carriage-horse group is again fabricating stories about NYC carriage industry

    http://horsebackmagazine.com/hb/archives/14758

    "An anti-carriage-horse group, the Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages, is again fabricating stories about the New York City carriage industry, the Horse and Carriage Association of New York City announced. The Horse and Carriage Association is responding to allegations by the radical animal rights group that an unnamed carriage horse fell and broke its leg in Central Park in February and is no longer in the business. On the contrary, the carriage horse in question is alive and well, and the Horse and Carriage Association dismissed CBHDC President Elizabeth Forel’s assertion that the horse has been shot and killed."


    It's not too late to join us at ClipClopNYC 2012 and show your support for the carriage horses! http://clipclopnyc.com/news/
    Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

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  2. #2
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    Sigh. Just what you'd expect from them.

    I am signed up for ClipClop and can't wait!

    There is a glimmer of hope, however. A co-worker of mine is extremely animal rights. She's a sweet person, total vegetarian, and a very honest, sensible person. She has been out to my barn to meet my horse, and knows I ride and show. She also knows I'm committed to the welfare of my horses. I told her I was going to NYC for a "carriage horse event." Naturally, she assumed I was anti-carriage horse. We got into a good discussion, and she was honest enough to admit that she knew next to nothing about horses, and has to make decisions based on the info she gets from others. I provided facts about horse care, and why carriage horses in NYC were actually a fortunate, well cared for group of horses. At the end of the conversation, she said she would pass that info on to other anti-carriage horse people that she knows. My position surprised her, but was backed up with facts, so it was well-received.
    It's 2014. Do you know where your old horse is?



  3. #3
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    Forel has made some off-the-wall accusations in the past, but this one is really over the top. She's also demanding "proof." Uh, a vet report and diagnosis is not proof to her? And somehow, the horse she claimed was "shot" due to the "broken leg" is now back at work. Damn, the horse survived a broken leg and bullet and is now sound and happy, all in several week's time? It's a miracle! Or, more likely, Lizzie was lying! Ya think?



  4. #4
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    Not NYC, but my husband and I just spent the weekend in St. Augustine, and carriage horses are quite popular here. I was pretty excited to come up and have a carriage ride of the historical city.... Until two horse completey turned me off.

    I will say a majority of the horses up here are healthy weight and substantial size, but 2 are I'm such horrid condition and Small! Like maybe 14.1 thinly, very thinly built Arab looking breed, that the sight if those 2 horses, completely set me off.

    Plan on calling the company tomorrow.... Made me so sad every time they passed us, my husband would make us change directions....

    Now, the other carriage companys had some beautiful horses, ones that I saw alternate the 4 days we were here and looked in great health and fitness....( which is why these 2 just Sooooo set me off.... Grrrrr)
    Posted with my Android smartphone.



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoseBud143 View Post
    I will say a majority of the horses up here are healthy weight and substantial size, but 2 are I'm such horrid condition and Small! Like maybe 14.1 thinly, very thinly built Arab looking breed, that the sight if those 2 horses, completely set me off.
    What kind of "horrid condition"? "Thinly built" or thin? Smaller, lighter horses do better in hot climates, as I am sure you know; lots of Arabs and Arab-y horses pulling carriages in cities, and if well-cared for, they do very well.

    Not challenging, just asking....
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts



  6. #6
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    Hrm which company ? I live about 20 mins north of Jax and am there all the time. I've seen a coby pony not small or light by any means pulling an appropriate sized carriage.

    Never seemed out of sorts from the rest. Matter of fact I often have remarked on how cute he is.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  7. #7
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    Those anti carriage people don't have other in life than find a cause of the moment and go bat for it.
    Too bad they fixated on carriage horses.

    Don't expect any other than keep being harassed, it is how some of them make a living, or how they feel they are making a difference, some times for the better, others, well, a bit strangely way out there, illogical and senseless.

    There are all kinds of people around, just as there are those that do abuse horses and should be shot, there are those that are a bit, "special" and can't understand how the world really works and happen to believe strange things.
    They truly are not able to comprehend there are other in life that counts but their ideas.

    Just be glad most people, once you explain your position, will say, "oh, yeah, that makes sense" and move on.
    Others, that the world is like it is doesn't work for them and they take it on what you do or may do, tilting at windmills.

    Keep your own house as clean as you can and remember, education is your goal, for those that can learn.



  8. #8
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    May. 23, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by hackinaround View Post
    Hrm which company ? I live about 20 mins north of Jax and am there all the time. I've seen a coby pony not small or light by any means pulling an appropriate sized carriage.

    Never seemed out of sorts from the rest. Matter of fact I often have remarked on how cute he is.
    Country carriages, dark bay smaller horse with prominent hip bones. We fl with our on keeper how we had wanted to do a carriage ride but seeing these 2 horse just turned us off. She new right away which one I was talking about as comments have been made before.

    I have no problem what so ever with carriage horses, its a country tradition/pastime. I just like seeing horses that seem capable of doing the job, not just mentally but physically fit as well.
    Posted with my Android smartphone.



  9. #9
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    Oct. 31, 2004
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    I think that Rosebud made the most important point. Wherever animals are used and even though most may be properly cared for, there are always those lazy or cheap or uneducated owners that either abuse or neglect their animals. One bad apple will spoil the whole basket. The best way to deal with this is if the organization for the horses police themselves and hold tough standards and throw the bums out.

    It's just like the puppy mill industry. If breeders didn't protect the puppy mill industry there would be no problem, no one calling for tougher laws to protect the dogs and no overbreeding in horrid conditions. The industry should stop complaining about the protesters and take matters into their own hands, clean up their bad apples and be a pillar of the community. I see no problem with the simple act of a horse pulling a cart or carriage if it's safe and the horses welfare is foremost.




    Quote Originally Posted by RoseBud143 View Post
    Not NYC, but my husband and I just spent the weekend in St. Augustine, and carriage horses are quite popular here. I was pretty excited to come up and have a carriage ride of the historical city.... Until two horse completey turned me off.

    I will say a majority of the horses up here are healthy weight and substantial size, but 2 are I'm such horrid condition and Small! Like maybe 14.1 thinly, very thinly built Arab looking breed, that the sight if those 2 horses, completely set me off.

    Plan on calling the company tomorrow.... Made me so sad every time they passed us, my husband would make us change directions....

    Now, the other carriage companys had some beautiful horses, ones that I saw alternate the 4 days we were here and looked in great health and fitness....( which is why these 2 just Sooooo set me off.... Grrrrr)



  10. #10
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    Oct. 26, 2003
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    Now the anti-horse RARAs are planning a demo called "ClipClop and Drop." So, all of the visitors going to the HCANY's event can see these nut jobs firsthand. You're in for some real entertainment in the Big Apple!



  11. #11
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    Mar. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoseBud143 View Post
    Country carriages, dark bay smaller horse with prominent hip bones. We fl with our on keeper how we had wanted to do a carriage ride but seeing these 2 horse just turned us off. She new right away which one I was talking about as comments have been made before.

    I have no problem what so ever with carriage horses, its a country tradition/pastime. I just like seeing horses that seem capable of doing the job, not just mentally but physically fit as well.
    Country Carriages had two bays working yesterday both on vis a vis. One is a morgan/ arab cross 14.3 hands and the other is a standardbred 15 hh. I have spoken with the owner of Country Carriages about this matter and she has recieved no phone calls pertaining to this complaint. More information concerning description of driver, carriage, time of day would be helpful in identifying exactly which horse concerned you...



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah1982 View Post
    Country Carriages had two bays working yesterday both on vis a vis. One is a morgan/ arab cross 14.3 hands and the other is a standardbred 15 hh. I have spoken with the owner of Country Carriages about this matter and she has recieved no phone calls pertaining to this complaint. More information concerning description of driver, carriage, time of day would be helpful in identifying exactly which horse concerned you...
    I haven't called or emailed yet was planning on doing so when i got to a computer, and uploaded the picture. ( on my cell phone )

    looking at there website, they have some beautiful horses, and i saw a few of them out working while I was there, so I was suprised when I saw that the horse was pulling a cart with there logo....
    Posted with my Android smartphone.



  13. #13
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    I am not trying to complicate matters, but as a point of information- draft horses were not originally used to pull vis-a-vis stye carriages ar surry style carriages (the seats both face front like in an auto). I haven't seen a photo of the horse that Rose Bud123 saw. I don't know if the horse was "in good flesh" or not. But I do want to address the common use of drafts as carriage horses.

    Traditionally people used light horse breeds like Morgans, Tbs, Standardbreds, even Saddlebreds and Tennessee Walking Horses and Quarter Horses for carriages. Even well-built grade horses or light horse crosses were used to pull their carriages and buggies. They used the heavy horse breeds, primarily up north and in the midwest for farm work. In the southern states, mules were used for farm work. There were three classes of mules: cotton mules, sugar mules and draft mules. Cotton mules were the smallest and draft mules were the largest.

    The use of the heavy horse breeds or crosses for carriage work is a fairly recent innovation in the long history of carriage driving. (I am not talking about coaches, here. Coaches and coaching horses are a whole other topic.) I am talking about carriages like those that would have been privately owned or available for hire for personal use at a livery stable. I believe the use of drafts in modern times (since 1976 when carriages made a reappearance in many cities thanks to the Bicentennial) got started for two reasons:

    1 - Cold-blooded heavy horses or draft breeds and their crosses are more tractable, less likely to become nervous in traffic, and they make a BIG impression. They are also readily available in the northeast and midwest.

    2 - Many of the carriage horses being used in major cities in the northeast and midwest, in particular, are in fact former farm horses that could no longer stand the constant heavy field work required by Amish in that part of the country. But these older horses are well-trained and well able to do the much easier job of pulling a lightweight modern carriage on flat asphalt covered streets. And also, it is really not that easy to find well-trained light horse breeds that have been trained for carriage work and are still sound. Most of the former Standardbred race horses are usually bought by the Amish and used as "road horses" on their buggies. these horse are usually kept until they develop some sort of lameness problem. This renders them unfit to become carriage horses.

    So you see, it is the combination of these big drafts being attractive and tractable, already trained in harness and readily available while the more traditional light carriage horses are less steady, and not so readily available that made the use of the heavy horses popular. Really one does not "need" a draft horse to pull a carriage. Light horse breeds can do this perfectly well without any harm to them.

    Now, some 30 years later, people are more acustomed to seeing drafts pulling carriages. When they see a light horse, they naturally think the horse is "too small." All of the major carriage companies that I know of offer both draft size shafts and poles and regular sized shafts and poles to be used with the same carriages. There are additionally some scaled-down 2/4 size vehicles, but hese are advertised as for use with Haflingers or other pony breeds. There are even smaller sized vehicles scaled for use with minies, mainly for show competition or pleasure driving purposes.

    Down South, there are not many draft horses and harness racing is not very popular, so finding drafts or even Standardbreds to work as carriage horses is not as easy as it is farther north. I would love to see the photo of the horse whose condition was objectionable to Rose Bud123. Some light breeds of horse have more prominant hips than do drafts. Drafts all tend to be stout and "round" looking to me when you compare thaem to light horses.

    I do have a 17 hand TWH (unusual but not unheard of) and a 17 hand Percheron. They are the same height, but the Percheron outweighs the TWH by a good 800 lbs. Her bones are larger and thicker and her build is just more stout and more heavily muscled than his are. They could each easily pull the roberts carriage I have, but I only have draft sized shafts, so the shafts are too widely spaced for my TWH to look "good" in them.



  14. #14
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    Mar. 19, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by pony4me View Post
    Sigh. Just what you'd expect from them.

    I am signed up for ClipClop and can't wait!

    There is a glimmer of hope, however. A co-worker of mine is extremely animal rights. She's a sweet person, total vegetarian, and a very honest, sensible person. She has been out to my barn to meet my horse, and knows I ride and show. She also knows I'm committed to the welfare of my horses. I told her I was going to NYC for a "carriage horse event." Naturally, she assumed I was anti-carriage horse. We got into a good discussion, and she was honest enough to admit that she knew next to nothing about horses, and has to make decisions based on the info she gets from others. I provided facts about horse care, and why carriage horses in NYC were actually a fortunate, well cared for group of horses. At the end of the conversation, she said she would pass that info on to other anti-carriage horse people that she knows. My position surprised her, but was backed up with facts, so it was well-received.
    I can't wait either!

    Thank you for educating your co-worker. I'm glad she was receptive to facts - sadly, not everyone is...
    Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

    "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)



  15. #15
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    I was in New York last weekend and while most of the horses were, indeed, in lovely condition from their heads to their (beautifully shod and polished) feet, there were a couple that gave me pause -- a dark bay/black horse that appeared to be a Standardbred (freeze branded on the neck) that was quite thin and a chestnut that was being trotted through the park and was head bobbing lame.

    I'm kicking myself for not getting the hoof number of the bay one to pass along to the NY carriage folks here who could have a word on the quiet with his driver.
    According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.



  16. #16
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    This is the sort of mentality that the carriage industry has to deal with. Taken off the carriage horse cruelty sight

    "Vanessas Cousin: To all the IDIOTS that say horses "like" to work. Really? So they wouldn't rather be doing this? Now THIS is how a horse should be living. Look how happy mother and daughter are. Able to run freely with no heavy equiptment. Able to run and play. Able to roll in the dirt. Their body language says it all. Their coats and physic say it all. Now go watch the horses in NYC pulling carriages with ignorant, self absorbed slobs riding in the back. Horses forced to wear heavy equiptment amongst loud noise and hard surfaces not being able to drink or lie down when they feel. Ripped away from their freedoms, dignities and families. Their coats matted in dirt, always tired and forced to stand and lean to one side to rest their frail bones. If you don't see a difference here, then YOU who feel horses like to work and aren't abused in NYC, are just as stupid as those who hop in the back and enslave them. How dare you call yourself an animal lover and then have the nerve to say you are "experienced" with horses. Go chuck off and suck something. You don't need to know much about horses to know the difference between a happy horse and a sad one. All your bullshit experience in the world can't argue that. Slags!

    Stand up and FIGHT for the NYC Carriage Horses so they too can have a chance to live like these horses do, and stop listening to these self-appointed experts on Facebook who know nothing but their own SELFISH perceptions on what it truly is to be happy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIUalhSAHhA&feature=related"
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hackinaround View Post
    This is the sort of mentality that the carriage industry has to deal with. Taken off the carriage horse cruelty sight

    "Vanessas Cousin: To all the IDIOTS that say horses "like" to work. Really? So they wouldn't rather be doing this? Now THIS is how a horse should be living. Look how happy mother and daughter are. Able to run freely with no heavy equiptment. Able to run and play. Able to roll in the dirt. Their body language says it all. Their coats and physic say it all. Now go watch the horses in NYC pulling carriages with ignorant, self absorbed slobs riding in the back. Horses forced to wear heavy equiptment amongst loud noise and hard surfaces not being able to drink or lie down when they feel. Ripped away from their freedoms, dignities and families. Their coats matted in dirt, always tired and forced to stand and lean to one side to rest their frail bones. If you don't see a difference here, then YOU who feel horses like to work and aren't abused in NYC, are just as stupid as those who hop in the back and enslave them. How dare you call yourself an animal lover and then have the nerve to say you are "experienced" with horses. Go chuck off and suck something. You don't need to know much about horses to know the difference between a happy horse and a sad one. All your bullshit experience in the world can't argue that. Slags!

    Stand up and FIGHT for the NYC Carriage Horses so they too can have a chance to live like these horses do, and stop listening to these self-appointed experts on Facebook who know nothing but their own SELFISH perceptions on what it truly is to be happy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIUalhSAHhA&feature=related"
    You may ask her if she is enslaved by the clothes she wears, or runs around naked and free 24/7/365.
    If she inherited the money she lives off, or if she has to work to make a living.



  18. #18
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    The NYC carriage horse "controversy" was manufactured by radical animal rights extremists This all about CONTROL. They want to CONTROL the ownership (bann it) and used (bann it) of horses.

    They are attacking the NYC carriage horse owners becasue theyy are an easy target. Their horses are visible 18 hours a day in too DIFFERENT shifts with differet horse working a max of 9 hours each shift.

    Horse driving is even more misunderstood and esoteric than horse riding, so it is so easy for the radical animal rights extremists to lie and make up stuff to present to the general public. BTW, you would be surprised at even how many members of the horse owning and riding public are quick to believe the lies about carriage horses being bandied about by these extremists.

    This really isn't about animal welfare. These extremists are concerned about gaining CONTROL, not about helping horses. Their claims they are concerned for horses' welfare is just an an excuse.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bayou_bengal View Post
    The NYC carriage horse "controversy" was manufactured by radical animal rights extremists This all about CONTROL. They want to CONTROL the ownership (bann it) and used (bann it) of horses.

    They are attacking the NYC carriage horse owners becasue theyy are an easy target. Their horses are visible 18 hours a day in too DIFFERENT shifts with differet horse working a max of 9 hours each shift.

    Horse driving is even more misunderstood and esoteric than horse riding, so it is so easy for the radical animal rights extremists to lie and make up stuff to present to the general public. BTW, you would be surprised at even how many members of the horse owning and riding public are quick to believe the lies about carriage horses being bandied about by these extremists.

    This really isn't about animal welfare. These extremists are concerned about gaining CONTROL, not about helping horses. Their claims they are concerned for horses' welfare is just an an excuse.

    I could not have put it better myself if I tried. Again the proof is in their current plans to boycott the fun raiser for Blue Star who has agreed to retire any NYC carriage horse that finds itself in need of such a place.

    Boycotting because Blue Star according to them is NOT a rescue because they will work and train those that come to them that are able.

    With that frame of mind anyone including me who has "retired" a sound older horse to any of the wonderful places that work with the disabled are "animal abusers" .

    They don't want NYC horses banned they want horse ownership banned.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hackinaround View Post
    I could not have put it better myself if I tried. Again the proof is in their current plans to boycott the fun raiser for Blue Star who has agreed to retire any NYC carriage horse that finds itself in need of such a place.

    Boycotting because Blue Star according to them is NOT a rescue because they will work and train those that come to them that are able.

    With that frame of mind anyone including me who has "retired" a sound older horse to any of the wonderful places that work with the disabled are "animal abusers" .

    They don't want NYC horses banned they want horse ownership banned.
    Just look at the language in all the ban bills about the "approved retirement" of formerly licensed carriage horses - it's all about defining "use" as "abuse" and asserting that the only appropriate home for a horse is one where they will be a companion animal only. Furthermore, even though the new home will technically "own" the former carriage horse - they won't really, because they will be prohibited from ever selling or rehoming that horse (not even, apparently, to give the horse back to the carriage owner they got him/her from). That's a big swipe at property ownership.



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