[Bluey]

Snarky...love that word.

Stalking... that has been Bluey's excuse for not posting details. She said she's a trainer. I question that statement.

You are just jealous that you didn't grow up to be a horse trainer, the fun to be had.

(Just teasing.)


OP, I hope you let us know how this develops, if you get to train your horse a bit more in that clinic or what else comes up.

[Western]

"Natural", in the horse world, is meant to convey the approach described by caballus: understand that the horse's psychology is different from humans', learn what the differences are, then use your knowledge to speak to the horse in "equus" & empathize with his perceptions, so that he sees you as a trusty leader, because you speak his language, provide empathy & the best ideas for what he should do (leadership).

A well-known BNT whose wife came up with the term condenses the description to the slogan, "Love, Language, Leadership". All 3 are needed, in equal doses.

If the horse enjoys his rider, why argue that the partnership is unnatural?

[caballus]

A well-known BNT whose wife came up with the term condenses the description to the slogan, "Love, Language, Leadership". All 3 are needed, in equal doses

Yes, 3 "L's" but that leaves out the "P" that follows Leadership.

Partnership.

That's what follows 'naturally' if all is well.

[goneriding24]

You are just jealous that you didn't grow up to be a horse trainer, the fun to be had.

Methinks you hit the nail on the head. Once, on another board (yes, a story is forthcoming), there was a man who would get into a white lather at experienced horsewo/men and call them all sorts of names, the usual, etc. Come to find out, he was a pharmacist of some sort who had been riding for a whopping two years. A real defender of the Peps. Someone told me he was an older man, I haven't a clue. Actually, now that I think about it...it does kind of add up. Kind of makes me wonder about someone on this board....

(Just teasing.)

Are you really, now...


OP, I hope you let us know how this develops, if you get to train your horse a bit more in that clinic or what else comes up.

Yup.

[goneriding24]

"Natural", in the horse world, is meant to convey the approach described by caballus: understand that the horse's psychology is different from humans', learn what the differences are, then use your knowledge to speak to the horse in "equus" & empathize with his perceptions, so that he sees you as a trusty leader, because you speak his language, provide empathy & the best ideas for what he should do (leadership).

Now wait a doggone minute. I thought all the horsenality stuff was because a horse is supposed to be defined in HUMAN terms, not the other way around!!

If the horse enjoys his rider, why argue that the partnership is unnatural?

Actually, I agree with that part.

[Western]

A cursory investigation of PNH will show you that it's as I said. The entire focus is to understand the horse's psychology & speak HIS language, rather than demand that the horse learn humanspeak. Pat says that a very small % of the horse needs to change, & a very large % of the human needs to, in a successful partnership. Why else would horsemanship be a lifelong endeavor for humans?

caballus, my post says that the partnership naturally follows the LLL: my concluding sentence reveals that (just not in "See Spot run!" form).

[skydy]

Just one recommendation for you:

No matter who the trainer is or what discipline or method they follow, please don't let your horse be the ginea pig there.
Let them have their day, participate as an auditor first and then, once you have seen what is going on and if you really want that person working with you and your horse, then you may do that.

Better than saying yes and the person be an idiot and you having to be rude to stop them, make a scene and get your horse out of a bad situation or worse, let them continue, afraid to stand up for your horse.

Just flat say you will audit and why.
No need to make excuses, be logical, you need to see any trainer working first before getting your horse worked with.
That will also get them to understand they need to respect you and your horse, you really mean it.

Or find a way to watch that trainer working before you agree to be part of their clinic.

This^^^^^^ Audit first!

[7HL]

You are just jealous that you didn't grow up to be a horse trainer, the fun to be had.

(Just teasing.)

Actually would never want to be a horse trainer and have to deal with the humans that own horses.

There is a group of them that shouldn't own horses. And there are many that buy into all kinds of manure when it comes to general horsemanship and care of their horses. Yes there are some that seek Parelli out for their fix. But you can't fix stupid.


Love horses, dislike some horse owners. I was at RTTH sitting behind a group of Clinton Anderson followers. One them remarked about liking a particular horse being started. She said she would love to buy it but has too many. She said that was the problem with buying horses, getting them and they won't do what she wants them to do. So she's stuck with them now. Stuck with them? Won't do what she wants? Clueless. You can't fix stupid.

[rainechyldes]

Don't wish to hijack the current Parelli thread, so rather decided to ask my own question about NH here. I've tried to read as much as possible in these forums, but it is still mind numbing.

Have tried to catch up on the whole NH issue since I've returned to riding and have an OTTB who isn't exactly straightforward - just because others have brought it up. We are starting over again on the longe quietly, not to "wear him out", but to listen. But he still certainly has his own mind.

Barn owner wants to go halvsies on getting a Parelli type trainer for an afternoon or more, for my horse and her green horse - a trainer they've "used successfully" in the past. First, I'm a little lukewarm because this barn is full of horses that can be rude, and in the few months I've been here, I haven't seen them do a whole lot with them, and just some odd ways of handling things. But even her saying "Parelli type", I'm not sure that's exactly what she means. (She has previously told me about my horse's swollen pastern, when he had a swelling on the front of a cannon bone). However I did inquire with another acquaintance about this trainer, and was told she is good with young, problem horses. Still not totally sold, however.

So I've been trying to learn what NH methods might be more ok than others? Just to get a better understanding of them all - before I decide if I want to apply any of their techniques. Never used anything like them before, and had years of experience when young. Perhaps not training a horse directly off the track, but training several who had been away a few months, and some off the truck "from out west". And it was just a matter of down to earth, hard work. But this horse is a puzzle with his own mind. Have eliminated physical issues.

I've had suggestions of Clinton Anderson books/tapes, and I see Melanie Smith Taylor consulted with Buck Brannaman.

I guess to put it succinctly, are there NH methods that do make some sense, and make some positive difference without all the whoop-de-do?

OK, getting ready to duck!

1. I only quotredyou so I could reply to your actual question - I have a short term memory

Myself, I would suggest you drop the NH 'though ' process and start with a more basic set of questions, and work to find the answers to those.

A. What are your goals, for yourself, - and for your horse?


ex: if you want to do dressagey stuff - then do your research, ask around, find a dressage trainer with a solid rep.
you want a jumper -- see above (but sub in jumping trainer) instead.
- do you want an up-down trainer - does your horse just need lessons on how to be a good horse citizen.. etc - the list is as endless as your imagination.


- Do you need lessons for yourself, or for your horse.. or both?
- a 'horse' trainer with a good rep to uphold will often train your horse and take you along for the ride - so you don't undo all their work once you get your pony back home

I'm not a NH fan - but neither am I solidly against NH - so don't misunderstand my comments please.

I prefer 'CH' (commonsense horsemanship) so imo.. humble as it is if you truly want to go NH..

Buck is a low key horseman - I've never found fault with him
clinton, - I can take or leave
Parelli - not a chance in hell will one of them get near my horse.

Personally I would go to none, and find yourself an honest to goodness 'horseperson' with experience and the reputation that goes with it, to teach you how to be a horse person and teach your horse.. to be a horse -- and these people exist in any horse community, but they generally don't have tv shows, a cult following, or funny colored whips. Just saying

[CVPeg]

Thanks everyone for all of your comments. Most of this is the kind of info I'm looking for. Guess I should have prefaced this by saying I'm in kind of a tough location physically. Been living near my old hometown the past several years, where I learned to ride eons ago, but also later, learned the local trainers were not really "the best", although I did learn a great deal of "seat of your pants" riding - of course that was "back in the day". Really in the boonies. During the years that I showed, I was in 2 larger cities where the trainers are excellent. My favorite from one location, is now only working privately, and is down at WEF all winter. My new mentor is closer to the other location, but still too far for any kind of regular visits. I would have the horse on the trailer in a flash to a good trainer regularly (for him AND me) if it was logistically and economically feasible. (No truck and trailer either...)

My goal is to make sure this guy has a place after the track for good. Since I'm H/J, my dream was that he would turn out to be a good prospect. At first when he was retired, I gave him to a good friend with a nice barn for that purpose. Would have been my dream to eventually show, or even hunt (finally!) with him, but I was not in a place where I could do it at the minute he was retired. But he has limitations that will preclude significant jumping. So I thought, fine, I'd be happy with him as a trail horse, my situation had changed, and I brought him here. He is boarded very close by, has an indoor, loads of fields (great when dry!) and access to some great trails. Well, he's still a handful, so I've been trying to read up, and of course, everyone has a suggestion. The goal is to do right by this horse, but he just wants to go back to the track!

I am still continuing to just do the common sense, conservative stuff. Since he had already been started, I began trying to work on all 3 gaits, and even going to poles, etc. He does lateral work very well on most days. And, yes, have gone over him extensively with the vet (we do have an outstanding lameness vet & farrier who visit - lucky there!) So back to working with him conservatively on the longe for communication, steadiness, and balance (huh? what is that!!) and back to the beginning under saddle as well. The longe is definitely improving slowly. He's no longer a firecracker there. Back in the saddle, he's back to the track. As I said, he is just so engaging, and really a fun horse on the ground... Mentor says that's a very good sign considering his antics in the saddle.

But I'm not going to do anything foolish with him. Just wondered if some of these "different" techniques have any merit or might have a component that will get his thinking towards me most of the time.

And of course, this is all compounded by limited turn out this messy winter. Which I guess also is an encouraging time for reading up on materials...why the question!

[CVPeg]

Personally I would go to none, and find yourself an honest to goodness 'horseperson' with experience and the reputation that goes with it, to teach you how to be a horse person and teach your horse.. to be a horse -- and these people exist in any horse community, but they generally don't have tv shows, a cult following, or funny colored whips. Just saying

You know, as I'm reading and responding to all of this, I think I'm going to do some leg work on seeing if I can find someone who I can at least observe - while they are working with someone "fresh". I do have to go into "the big city" at least every couple of weeks. Most of my best contacts were old ones, but I'll start asking around.

[Guilherme]

A cursory investigation of PNH will show you that it's as I said. The entire focus is to understand the horse's psychology & speak HIS language, rather than demand that the horse learn humanspeak. Pat says that a very small % of the horse needs to change, & a very large % of the human needs to, in a successful partnership. Why else would horsemanship be a lifelong endeavor for humans?

caballus, my post says that the partnership naturally follows the LLL: my concluding sentence reveals that (just not in "See Spot run!" form).

Well, no.

What we have in PNH is a massive "disconnect" between the words (overly complex, requiring mastery of new language at a very high price) and actions (which range from reasonable to brutish). Of course the language is always used to reflect positively on Parelli.

For a very good example of this in literature, see the encounter between Alice and Humpty Dumpty. Lewis Carrol probably wasn't thinking of Parelli, but he could have been.

Again, from the horse's perspective, we are a threat species. We've domesticated the horse for OUR purposes, not for his. NO HORSE needs any human. Humans do need horses.

Put another way, we impose on the horse, not the other way 'round.

G.

[katarine]

I would start with the book True Horsemanship through Feel by Leslie Desmond and see where it takes you, philosophically.

There are a small number of good clinicians who do not oversell their approach as needing special tools or tricks. It's just good horsemanship. Buck Brannaman, Martin Black, Jon Ensign are those that come immediately to mind. Quiet, focused, direct, honest horsemen. Personally, I am put off by anyone who is a trainer who also has a shed load of tools to sell you. You can use a broken car antennae as a carrot stick, and a good rope halter can be had from many sources and shouldn't have extra knots and razor thin rope.

It's simple,and as Ray Hunt used to say ad nauseum- this stuff is free. It's out there in the air for anyone to learn, just try. Just get in there and try. Reward the smallest change, the slightest try.

I would start with that book and see where your journey takes you.

[Western]

...If my view sounds jaundiced, it's because it is. .

How do you mean, "jaundiced"? Envy, distaste, hostility, or ??

Well, no Well, no? Wholesale dismissal, hmm? Humans do need horses. Pray tell, how do humans need horses?Put another way, we impose on the horse, not the other way 'round.

If you feel that way, why do you continue to "impose upon the horse", then?

[goneriding24]

I prefer 'CH' (commonsense horsemanship) so imo.. humble as it is if you truly want to go NH..

I like 'commonsense horsemanship'. THAT's the term!! You better trademark that...and quickly.

[Guilherme]

How do you mean, "jaundiced"? Envy, distaste, hostility, or ??



If you feel that way, why do you continue to "impose upon the horse", then?

I have a distaste of and hostility to charletains, mountbanks, cutpurses, ne're do wells, etc.

I "impose" upon my horses because I feel like it. When I no longer feel like it I'll sell them and go do something else.

Now, the next step is usually for somebody to slip into "PETA" mode and figure that I must be some sort of moral and ethical monster who "abuses" their stock. Or that I don't "love" them. That, of course, would be either an unfounded assumption or an out and out lie. I've posted several photos in the past of our stock, farm, etc. I'm also in the phone book.

The horse has been domesticated for about 10,000 years. Good horsemanship has been around since at least the time of Xenophon (and that's about 2400 years). Not everyone who has ever owned a horse has been a good horseman. But no surprises there, eh?

"Natural Horsemanship" has been around for about 20 years. It's got two or three brand varieties. It will be interesting to see if people read Parelli/Lyons/Hunt/Dorrance/Rashid in a couple of millenia the way we still read Xenophon.

G.

[goneriding24]

"Natural Horsemanship" has been around for about 20 years. It's got two or three brand varieties. It will be interesting to see if people read Parelli/Lyons/Hunt/Dorrance/Rashid in a couple of millenia the way we still read Xenophon.G.

You are more learned than I but I'll stick my $.03 in anyway. The term 'Natural Horsemanship' has been around for, I'm thinking, more than 20 years, because I heard that clear back in the very early '80's, if not late '70's. Sometime in that era was when PP and ilk were starting out and I remember seeing people with looonnnggg @$$ lead ropes wiggle-worming their horse's heads when my kids were in 4-H. Matter of fact, I think Eitan Beth-Halchemy (sp??) has something like 'natural horsemanship' trademarked. I'm not sure of the official term, just read about it on Western Dressage board. Anyone can look it up.

But, I do wholeheartedly agree with you about whether in a millennia, we'll still look back on PP, JL, etc as the masters. I don't think so. They will be but a footnote at best, I'm thinking. Xeno, to me, is 'commonsense horsemanship'. Jeepers, I loff that term!! The only thing will be that some families will have a hefty inheritance coming down from their natural horsemanship forebears....

[Guilherme]

20 years; 40 years; 60 years...what's that against 2300???

About 10 years ago a "natural horsemanship" affecionado was highly critical of Xenophon, stating that he was not "natural." Ahem...just how could he be anything but "natural" in the days before stirrups, curb bits, rigid tree saddles, iron horse shoes, etc.? She demonstrated, clearly, the incredible narrowmindedness of the "natural horsemanship" crowd and it's almost religious belief in its own righteousness.

There's wisdom in history, here.

G.

[Bluey]

20 years; 40 years; 60 years...what's that against 2300???

About 10 years ago a "natural horsemanship" affecionado was highly critical of Xenophon, stating that he was not "natural." Ahem...just how could he be anything but "natural" in the days before stirrups, curb bits, rigid tree saddles, iron horse shoes, etc.? She demonstrated, clearly, the incredible narrowmindedness of the "natural horsemanship" crowd and it's almost religious belief in its own righteousness.

There's wisdom in history, here.

G.

My story about that:

Auditing a clinic by an instructor of The One That Shall Not Be Named, everyone was telling stories and I mentioned years and years ago having ridden in the canyons and brush, gathering cattle, for four hours, without a bridle, just a string around my horse's neck.

The clinician said that could not be so, because BP, before PP taught riding without a bridle, no one knew about that.
That was a very young clinician.

Thankfully one of the local fellows was at that clinic also and said it was true.

[Kyzteke]

Check out the Eclectic Horseman forum/magazine and look at the trainers recommended there. (:

Ditto Eclectic horseman forum and magazine. TONS of good info.

There are lots of good trainers out there who are not fanatics about following one "school" of NHS and those are the ones you want to find.

Everyone from Parelli to Dennis Reis to Clint Anderson to Brannaman have something to contribute and the really good horsemen are the ones who "get" this and are smart enough to steal from anyone if it works and is kind to the horse.

Personally, I stay away from fanatics of any kind, including those who rant relentless about Parelli AND those who swear PP is the Second Coming. IMHO they are both full of horse crap and equally close-minded.

NHS is not a misnomer (neither is "jumbo shrimp" for that matter -- a "jumbo" shrimp is "jumbo" compared to other shrimp).

The "natural" part come from how you establish your relationship with the horse --in general by moving their feet and communicating with them via the same sort of body language that other horses use...hence the term "natural."

I've studied many of the NHS "schools" and learned from everyone of them, but have never followed any of them verbatim.

A smart horseman is smart enough to recognize something and incorporate in into his/her own methodology when it #1) works and #2) follows his/her personal philosophy of horsemanship, which in the NHS world is more about making a horse your willing partner rather than using force or gadgets.

BTW, when Buck Brannaman was asked which horsemen influenced him the most, he not only mentioned Hunt and Dorrence, but also George Morris. BB ain't no dummie...

PP mentioned Freddie Knie Sr.

If the trainer is getting results and the horse is not be tortured, you probably have your answer right there.