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  1. #1
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    It's from her thread, "Decided to geld" and I'm going to pick up on it as I've been playing around with this idea for some time.

    The whole quote is:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What we do not have is a program of trainers to help us to get our young stock from the breeders' farms to the show rings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Can I throw this out there one more time? As a business person I've got some ideas. Mostly involving partnerships with breeders for exceptional young, US-bred stock.

    What's the biggest problem? Finding the trainers? Is that it? Or is it the money part of it?

    The adventure has begun...
    KT

    P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  2. #2
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    Aug. 2, 2001
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    VA
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    It's from her thread, "Decided to geld" and I'm going to pick up on it as I've been playing around with this idea for some time.

    The whole quote is:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What we do not have is a program of trainers to help us to get our young stock from the breeders' farms to the show rings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Can I throw this out there one more time? As a business person I've got some ideas. Mostly involving partnerships with breeders for exceptional young, US-bred stock.

    What's the biggest problem? Finding the trainers? Is that it? Or is it the money part of it?

    The adventure has begun...
    KT

    P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov. 21, 2002
    Location
    Durham, NC
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    970

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    Being on both sides of this issue, I have a different perspective. We breed and buy very young stock, raise, break, train and sell our own quality warmblood horses. My husband has been riding and training professionally for almost 20 years.

    With so many young horses at home right now, the glory is minimal for him. However, the progress we're making is wonderful, but very time consuming. We have about 32 horses here right now and all but 3 of them are our own sale horses. We've got a few nice warmblood mares (young show prospects, not career broodmares) in foal right now and so they're off the ride list until their babies are weaned.

    However, on a normal day, we have around 17+ to ride. That's just our horses -- an easy day in the winter (with so much less daylight) is around 13 horses. I also have a couple breeder friends that I work with. They send their young stock and put a set price on it.
    Whatever I turn it into once it's here is ours on top for labor, board and horse show fees.
    It's a risk, but the horses are very nice and I can make enough money to make it worth doing.

    However, I have also lost a ton of money by taking "consignment horses". The horses were not what they were supposed to be. I asked for statements in writing as to the level of training and description of the horse -- all lies. The breeder/owner went behind my back directly to the customer and screwed me. (The woman used to post on the bb). After this happened, I decided NO more consignment horses and I would be VERY cautious about "partnerships". SO, now I only deal with a couple people who I know very well. Point being, there are crooked trainer, owners, breeder...I'm a straight shooter as those of you who know me know.... so, I just cut those types of people right on out of my life and my business. It's simply not worth the risk -- or my reputation.

    I don't know exactly what the answer is, but there seems to be a solution for some people.
    It's just got to work for everyone involved. A friend of mine breeds lovely warmbloods, and has a situation like that worked out with a local trainer. I don't know exactly what she has offered him, or what scale they plan on taking this to as far as horse showing... However, so far, it has worked well for her. I will be interested to know how it goes in the future.

    However, in response to the comment about needing trainers to bring young stock along affordably... I agree, but as to how to do that....I just don't know. In order to run a top notch facility, it costs money. It costs me almost $600/ mo. just to tie up a stall. That includes 2 full time grooms/ and a part time person/ plus my husband and I working full time -- daily grain, hay, shavings, turn out, blanket changes...that's my cost. So, if you factor in training time. I just can't afford to do it for under $1200/mo. That's $23 a ride as the horses work 6 days a week. Well, if my husband drives off the farm to ride, it's $50/a ride. (Which he doesn't do anymore) We don't have boarders because we can't afford them. We don't solicit full training customers because we do much better with our own horses. However, I do keep a couple stalls designated for people who really want to send their horses. -- Never more than 3 at a time. It's just not cost effective when we could be working one of our own.

    Look at your cost of breeding a youngster, getting it started (basics) and old enough to actually do something at the shows... and what do you have $10-12k at least.
    Ok, so add to that, the cost of horse shows, and you're going to EASILY have an extra $15k into a nice horse before anyone even knows who the horse is...

    I think that a possible solution (which an international GP rider friend of mine suggested-- and it has worked for him) is a 50% partnership. You hand over the raw material with a 50% ownership and send the horse off for full training. You pay the costs of keeping the horse only, but no training fees. You pay the horse show entries, but no extra fees (the trainer is earning that in sweat equity).
    You let the horse go for a couple years and hope that he turn out to be something worth a decent 6 figures... and if that is the case you will end up with half. SO, if you breed a baby, have $10k in it by the time he's 3 y.o. send it off for a couple years and have (realistically) $30k in it, and it sells for $175k you end up with $87,500 minus the $30k initial investment for a profit of $57,500.

    If you look at the stock market, and money market rates, it's not a bad idea if you've got a really nice horse that is going to be worth some serious money. For a mediocre horse, it's obviously not worth it to either trainer or breeder.

    As a breeder, I know I've got around $6k in a foal when it hits the ground if all goes well. By the time we break them at three we've probably got at least $10k invested. So, would I take the chance and send them off if I couldn't do it myself? I just don't know. I don't think the problem is the trainers or the breeders (everyone needs to make a living). The problem is that it just plain costs money to breed, raise, train and show horses.

    The business woman/ rider/ trainer side of me is mildly offended by the comment "we need trainers to help get our youngstock to the show rings"... Well, yeah, I need someone to come do the electrical work in my barn because I don't know how to do it, but I have to pay for it because my electrician has fees that he charges to do the job. If I could get someone to come over and "help" me do it, I'd be thrilled, but I seriously doubt that's going to happen!

    I'm mildly tired of people complaining about training fees -- until you've walked a mile in the shoes of a trainer trying to make a living....

    Oldenburg Mom hit the nail on the head when she said "exceptional young stock". For anything less than an exceptional horse, it's just going to be worth it.

    I'm not slamming Oakleigh...we've been struggling with the idea of gelding our lovely colt. It's not been an easy decision, but we are going to geld him this winter. We may collect him and then geld him, but I don't thing raising a young stallion prospect (and going through the whole approval thing) in the US makes any sense for us either.



  4. #4
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    Aug. 2, 2001
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    VA
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    Hotdog! A reply.

    And what a reply ... thanks very much indeed Hidden Hill for taking the time to write a lengthy and explicit reply.

    And yes, I believe the way to go is the 50% route. Absolutely. That is the only way to make it worthwhile for the trainer. And yes, exceptional is the right way.

    I think this is the way it should work: an agreement is made--partner on a horse with trainer. In my case, because I'm a BUYER, I'm trying to be an intermediary between breeder and trainer, so in fact what I'm doing is fronting candidates from the breeder to the trainer. Again, you hit the nail on the head: exceptional qualilty, e.g., one of the ones I'm looking at has Olympic sire on the top and bottom. I think that's one that --at a minimum--should be evaluated.

    The youngster grows up AT the breeders' farm, until 3.5 yrs, then goes to trainers' farm. The trainer does an evaluation for one month, whether she/he believes there is talent. No talent? Sell and cut losses.

    Talent? Take him/her as far as she will go.

    That's what I'm thinking. And as far as I can see there's no downside. EVERYONE's a$$ is covered.

    The problem is finding the RIGHT trainer. And you're absolutely correct. My biggest worry at this point is finding one that's honest. Because we're talking about a multi-year agreement here.

    What's your take on this ....

    It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
    KT
    P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov. 21, 2002
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    Durham, NC
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    I completely agree. I think it could work. However, I think breeders need to be realistic and use an opportunity like that to promote their farm and their horses and not look at it as a one shot deal money making opportunity.

    Many trainers do not have the luxury of time to take on a horse like that. It needs to be a candidate who has been in the area for a long time, has enough skill and experience but is still hungry enough to want to do something like that. Yes, really hard to find the right person. However, I think it's a great idea.



  6. #6
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    Yeah, the trainer is the problem.

    Any suggestions about finding the right one? Any criteria to ask about or attributes to consider?

    It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
    KT
    P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  7. #7
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    Sep. 10, 2002
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    Be VERY careful about partnerships. I have heard more of them going sour than being successful - especially in the horse business. If you didn't already have someone in mind, or someone that you've worked with, before you bought your stallion prospect, then I'm already hesitant for you.



  8. #8
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    Aug. 2, 2001
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    VA
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    RP -

    No this has nothing to do with him. This is going forward.

    I'm quite excited about this, ... any suggestions about finding someone? What's your take on all this?

    It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
    KT
    P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2003
    Location
    North Texas, US
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    Boy can I relate to this.

    I have a 4 y.o. TB stallion who's been approved by the RPSI and who will go to the 100 day in August.

    This is all new to me...breeding and stallion approvals. My situation is a little different as the stallion was GIVEN to my husband and I as a wedding present by a family friend who races TBs, so doing a partnership isn't an option and no matter what happens with our guy, he'll have a home for life. I didn't go looking for stallion prospect, he landed in my lap and with encouragement from others, decided to see what kind of potential he has. So far, it's been worth it, but I know that 2004 will be very stressful for me...first year trying to get outside mares, first year competing, preparing for the 100 day and then letting strangers have my baby for 100 days. Hopefully it will all be worth it.

    I have found a couple in Texas who have been recommended to me. She's German and he's Swiss (I believe). He used to work for the RPSI preparing young stock for approvals/testing. They are going to help me prepare Cyriz for the test. I'm thankful that I found them, because while there are great trainers in North Texas, I don't know how many have experience preparing young stallions and their training fees are very high and out of my budget.

    I also have some 3 and 4 year olds who are now all jumping around 2 - 2'6" and show quite a bit of potential. My challenge in selling them has been that the "A" show trainers around here don't seem to be interested in training and only want made horses jumping 3 - 3'6" with lots of miles. That's not my program. I don't want to keep them that long. I believe some have six figure potential, but I don't have the capital to get them there. I'm pretty open to out-of-the-box solutions, but haven't had much luck.
    www.debracysporthorses.com
    Home of Sea Accounts xx
    AHS/HV, ATA, GOV, RPSI, JC, AQHA, APHA, APtHA
    "LIKE" www.facebook.com/SeaAccounts



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2003
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    North Texas, US
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    Boy can I relate to this.

    I have a 4 y.o. TB stallion who's been approved by the RPSI and who will go to the 100 day in August.

    This is all new to me...breeding and stallion approvals. My situation is a little different as the stallion was GIVEN to my husband and I as a wedding present by a family friend who races TBs, so doing a partnership isn't an opti
    www.debracysporthorses.com
    Home of Sea Accounts xx
    AHS/HV, ATA, GOV, RPSI, JC, AQHA, APHA, APtHA
    "LIKE" www.facebook.com/SeaAccounts



  11. #11
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    VA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I believe some have six figure potential, but I don't have the capital to get them there. I'm pretty open to out-of-the-box solutions, but haven't had much luck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is exactly my point. Breeders don't have the capital.

    And, I don't believe it would be a problem for you to give away half of your 6-figure boy, would it? But, and there is always a but, the issue is the trainer.

    I've got a call into GM to see what he has to say about all this. What his thoughts are, what he thinks. That's assuming, of course, he even returns my phone call (HIGHLY unlikely!)

    I feel like putting an ad in CoTH: Wanted. Trainers looking for exceptional YOUNG horses to bring along --- salary: a cut of the action! LOL. OF course, the other issue is, "How good is the trainer?"

    There's got to be an answer out there somewhere!

    It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
    KT
    P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  12. #12
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    Aug. 27, 1999
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    I don't want to make this a "disciplinist" thing, but it occurs to me that a potential problem would be that different discplines have different resources. The truht is, the discipline that would have the most rainers who would be intereted in this sort of deal is eventing. BUT, eventing horses don't go for one millionth the $$ that the other disciplines do, they aren't particularly wild about full warmbloods, and it's been nolted that hunter/jumper people only like to deal with hunter/jumper people--you could have the next Rox Dene in your barn, but if you're not a known hunter trainer, it can be murder getting them out to look at it.

    The fact that so many hunter/jumper don't want anything but made horses leads me to question whether or not there are many hunter/jumper trainers who would have the knowledge or interst in doing a partnership on a young horse? But, that IS where the big bucks are.

    I think this isn't a bad idea, but I think the conitnually difficult challenge to overcome is the dearth of people who can and will work with young horses. The money issue is almost secondary.



  13. #13
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    VA
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    Heather,

    While money DOES, obviously, play an important part in this, it is my belief that this is not primarily an issue of cash or discipline. The primary issue here is quality.

    Finding the exceptional quality, I believe, in the US takes time, and I believe it's there. And THAT's what's important, not the discipline.

    Because, as we all know. There is NO money in horses. You do it for the love.

    The problem with this idea is finding the right trainer that cares about younguns. And is willing to bring them on s-l-o-w-l-y. This, in turn, will/would be good for all parties. Breeders, trainers, horses (me too!)

    Does this make sense? I've tried writing it three times and I may not be making myself clear.


    OH, and yes, you are absolutely correct. There is a dearth of people willing to work with young horses.

    I'm planning a trip to Germany next October. If I have not found a suitable trainer I will look at "importing" one. I believe this is too good an opportunity to pass up... and if I fail I will learn faaaar more.

    It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
    KT
    P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2003
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    Far Far Away from the warmth
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    Well I would just like to say that there are honest trainers out there wanting something like this. I for example have many years training young horses up to modified grand prix level (haven't had the horse with true Grand Prix talent yet) and also have three young stallions that I am bringing up very carefully. One problem is that people don't want to give up 50% of thier horse and also people don't want to invest in young horses. I have two 2.5 year olds both imported that are going to be worth 6 figures one as a jumper the other as a hunter and am trying to find an invester with no luck. I also know of a 4.5 year old mare in Holland who is going to be worth a ton within 2 years but don't have the money myself only the the training expertise.



  15. #15
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    Nov. 6, 2003
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    780

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    Another "option" (chose a certain breeder except), is that before you going looking for that "made" trainer...

    ...Search for that young rider with the POTENTIAL to be a "made" trainer/rider...

    Now that I have looked, visited local shows...inspections..anything horse related really, I have seen several talented young riders. (ages 14-18+)

    I made the mistake early on of trying to go out and BUY my horses (notice horses plural) looking for that "special horse"(quality) to help me get to the levels I was ready for/and needed a mount for...

    I was training with an instructor that eventually I outgrew, and coming from a family of NO horse background struggled to find new trainers etc.

    ANyways my point?

    There are many young riders out there struggling to find quality mounts, coming from families of no horse background, with not enough $$ to by the high quality...that would LOVE to meet breeders willing to send them horses or willing to let them ride for them... breeder pays boarding/vet/farrier etc....student pays shows maybe?

    And eventually what happens is your horses get the miles they NEED to attract those already "made" trainer/riders...

    If you keep stock at home, there is no extra cost to you, and most striving, young talent riders don't want money for their skills, just the quality animal to get them out to the shows, so they can get recognized and move up...

    You horse is getting quality training/riding and showing...for not much more $$ then you already spend on them... and your helping a talented young rider, prosper and work their way to being "made"...

    I know some irresponsible young riders have ruined it for the worthy ones, but the quality young riders ARE out there... just have faith,do "trials" and give it time....

    Just a thought....

    So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!



  16. #16
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    Aug. 25, 2002
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    Stockton, NJ
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    Hey KT - please let us know if GM gives you a response. From recent personal experience I can say that Hunterdon is not the best place for a young horse. Training young horses is not the focus of that facility.

    Having said that I think it is a great idea to talk to as many people about this as possible. Just by your post - I now know about Hidden Hill farm http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif. They sound like they have a good/well thought out program.

    It is very frustrating as a lot of this is "On the job training" for breeders to find the next step for their young horses. I have been most happy with the event riders who have started my young horses. They understand the concept of "going forward" and making things interesting for the horse.

    I think that it is rare to find one trainer that will be able to start a horse and then go on and successfully compete/market the horse to be sold for good $$. Having gone through this a few times - the top riders/trainers don't want to take the risk of getting hurt with a youngster. The people who are good at starting the youngsters don't always have the neccessary "polish" to do well in the show ring (don't mean to offend anyone here).

    It would be great to develope a "directory" of farms that are like Hidden Hill Farm. Of course for programs like this to be successful the breeders need to be realistic and not be "barn blind" about what they really have.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep. 10, 1999
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    NJ
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    http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif Ok add me to the list. I dont advertise and am usually always full, but my farm has a link and some of the horses I have started are on the page. Crystalacres who posts here knows first hand we can get them going correctly and affordably. Of course she threw a few curve balls along the way, 1) showing on the line while being started u/s, 2) getting bred, 3) showing while bred and doing the YHUS. We didn't send her home polished but in the 3 months we started her she could w/t/c be quiet not need a lunge (oops Kell we didnt teach her that) and go in the ring and garnish awards.
    It is amazing how many people aren't aware of who does this for a living!

    Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurie@CBF:
    I think that it is rare to find one trainer that will be able to start a horse and then go on and successfully compete/market the horse to be sold for good $$. The people who are good at starting the youngsters don't always have the neccessary "polish" to do well in the show ring (don't mean to offend anyone here).
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It is hard to find such a trainer in the US as they are all but non-existant.

    I have my stallion with a great stallion producer in Holland. I have spent my entire equine career starting horses and dealing with remedials. I hope to combine the two by spending a month this winter with my Dutch trainer to learn just how he puts the polish on the stallions for their licensing and 100 Day Tests and going back for more training. However, I've no idea how many new customers this is going to earn me as I am not a big name.

    In my experiences on the other side of the fence, these are the problems we trainers face;

    #1 -Y'all want a big a name, top notch facility, world class care and a backyard price.

    #2 -90% of all owners are completely barn blind and I have been misled to the point where I not only lose money but my and my staff's wellbeing were put in danger. Therefore, I would not be keen to jump into a partnership such as Hidden Hill's. With time and trust, I would do it, but not from the outset.

    #3 -Everyone wants to reproduce the European system but on their own terms to the point where it is not possible financially.

    Now, I am very realistic about my skills. I can start a horse beautifully (including all basic manners needed by a horse who will be stabled and competed) and get him to 2nd level dressage and jumping courses of 3'6 nicely. I can even introduce the horse to showing. What I cannot and will not do is campaign someone else's horse. I lack the polish needed to do a really good job as I'm working with a psychologist to overcome my nerves (I try too hard). Reading Geoff Teal's article in PH was all too familiar.

    Now, I can get a horse to the level where a bigger name trainer is going to look at him for around $750 a month. But that is with more European style care than US "A" barn.

    I have just bought land in South Carolina to be improved with the use of the neighbouring facility. If someone were to set up an operation similar to the youngstock yards in Europe, how many of you are really going to get behind it and support it with your horses?

    Susie
    Royal Oak Sporthorses
    Dutch Warmbloods & British Sporthorses.



  19. #19

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    Susie, get in touch when you relocate to South Carolina. I know quite a few folks in GA/SC/NC who are looking for trainers to start youngsters in both dressage and h/j. We thought about doing it at the facility I am affiliated with, but decided instead to focus on the 4 y/o and up crowd, mostly due to space and time constraints.



  20. #20
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Sporthorse South -I will definitely do that. I have the option go now, without my husband, but I'm not too sure how good that will be for my marriage! If all goes as planned, I intend to move in winter 2004.

    Cheers,
    Susie
    Royal Oak Sporthorses
    Dutch Warmbloods & British Sporthorses.



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