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  1. #1
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    Aug. 1, 2002
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    Default Clucking vs Clicking

    Going to pick up our new shelter dog tonight (yaaaaay!).

    She has been getting some clicker training at the shelter, and will be my first dog so trained. I am one of those people who clucks at my dog (and boyfriend....and other people in their cars...) to get his attention and hurry him up. Had horrible thought this morning: is this going to confuse the new dog?

    It's the time of year when I should be going cold turkey anyway so as not to incur dressage judge wrath. Easier said than done, though!

    ETA: Oops, meant to post in The Menagerie, not here...mea culpa, Mods! Please move if you see fit.



  2. #2
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    Default

    no, it won't. A tongue cluck sounds nothing like a mechanical clicker.



  3. #3
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    Jan. 30, 2009
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    Default

    Yes, but my tongue cluck sounds just like my tongue click. So if they have been using a verbal click, he may be confused. But you can give him another cue instead if you want to continue his training.



  4. #4
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    Aug. 3, 2004
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    Default

    "Clicker training" is not a voice command. It's made by a "clicker" which is a piece of equipment. So your cluck will sound nothing like a click from a clicker.

    http://www.clickertraining.com/whatis



  5. #5
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    Default

    The idea of using a mechanical object as a clicker, be it a real clicker or ballpoint or some such, is that it is a neutral sound.

    Our voices, even just clicking, have way too much else riding on them than a mere mechanical click, even when we try to be as neutral as we can make it.



  6. #6
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    Jan. 2, 2012
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    Wairarapa New Zealand
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    Default

    Good on the shelter for attempting to put some training in prior to re-homing!

    However, clicker training does not have to be done with a mechanical clicker - it merely has to have a definite, positive, event marker. I use "clicker training" to shape behaviour in my dogs - I started with a mechanical clicker but used that to get the connection to any defined noise. The most common one I use is a click of my fingers as you always have those with you and I also dont just use food as the associated reward. (That is long after they have got used to it!) It is amazing how quickly dogs learn that the click of my fingers = reward = listen for it.

    However a click with fingers or a mechanical clicker is nothing like a tongue cluck - just make sure that you do not use that when training/playing your dog.

    I must try it with my horse ..... Rae wanders off to give it a go



  7. #7
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    Default

    Yes, but my tongue cluck sounds just like my tongue click. So if they have been using a verbal click, he may be confused.
    Let me assure you that practically no one who "clicker trains" uses their tongue to produce the clicks. If they stated they were using clicker training, they were almost certainly using a mechanical device to produce a click.



  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    Let me assure you that practically no one who "clicker trains" uses their tongue to produce the clicks. If they stated they were using clicker training, they were almost certainly using a mechanical device to produce a click.
    What?! Wait! I'm a very serious clicker trainer, and I have used tongue clucks since the second day I was clicker trainer (more than ten years).

    The first day, I had my clicker in hand, and I was so excited. It was going so well!

    The second day, I did not have my clicker in my hand, and my horse did something brilliant; and before I could even think, I clucked. My horse understood immediately that a mechanical click and a tongue cluck were interchangeable. And they have been ever since, making clicker training even more handy.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cindyg View Post
    What?! Wait! I'm a very serious clicker trainer, and I have used tongue clucks since the second day I was clicker trainer (more than ten years).

    The first day, I had my clicker in hand, and I was so excited. It was going so well!

    The second day, I did not have my clicker in my hand, and my horse did something brilliant; and before I could even think, I clucked. My horse understood immediately that a mechanical click and a tongue cluck were interchangeable. And they have been ever since, making clicker training even more handy.
    In theory, you are making it more difficult for your subject, if it is an animal very attuned to your voice.
    There is no way to keep any voice produced sound from not carrying intonation, how you feel about what the student is doing to how you feel at that time.

    Using voice, the purist operant conditioning theory claims, is muddling that kind of signal, that is supposed to be void of any other meaning than being a marker.

    in reality, whatever works for you is ok, training is not mathematics, where you have to be that exact.



  10. #10
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    I have interacted with large numbers of of clicker-trained dogs and when I absent-mindedly do a "hurry up there" horse-cluck at them they sure don't seem to recognize it as a "click".

    -using a verbal marker isn't a direct substitute for the mechnical device, it simply can't replicate the "sameness" and "shortness" of it. Most people I know make real sure they have a mechanical clicker around for planned training sessions, and for later work or whoops I forgot my clicker moments they use a verbal marker, usually something like the word YES (not a tongue click noise) knowing full well it's not the same and is not as effective as a mechanical clicker.

    I would think that trying to use a tongue-click noise for clicker-training horses would be an exercise in confusion for the horses, because most horses are constantly and regularly exposed to people tongue- clucking at them intending it to mean something totally different than a "marker".



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    In theory, you are making it more difficult for your subject, if it is an animal very attuned to your voice.
    There is no way to keep any voice produced sound from not carrying intonation, how you feel about what the student is doing to how you feel at that time.

    Using voice, the purist operant conditioning theory claims, is muddling that kind of signal, that is supposed to be void of any other meaning than being a marker.

    in reality, whatever works for you is ok, training is not mathematics, where you have to be that exact.
    I think we're arguing semantics.

    My horse understands a "hurry up click" coming from the side of my tongue against the side of my cheek as a signal to trot or just to "come on!"

    My C/T cluck is made with the bottom of my tongue behind my top front teeth. There is no vocal sound. I totally agree with you that a verbal "atta boy" or "gooooood" is not as effective as a click. A C/T click needs to be quick, sharp, and nonverbal.

    My horse never confuses a my click and my cluck.

    Regardless of the details, I do love clicker training!



  12. #12
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    Jan. 30, 2009
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    My point was that I have been training dogs, horses, and mules now using positive reinforcement since the mid 90s, using a verbal signal, and everyone seems to figure it out just fine. Yes, the clicker is probably the most exact signal one can use, but it becomes highly inexact when I am riding, because I am busy riding, and it is really easy to get your timing off. And timing is everything, so I use a verbal signal "AH". But I reserve my clucks for a go faster signal. And if I could do a verbal click that didn't sound just like my cluck, I would do so.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cindyg View Post
    I think we're arguing semantics.

    My horse understands a "hurry up click" coming from the side of my tongue against the side of my cheek as a signal to trot or just to "come on!"

    My C/T cluck is made with the bottom of my tongue behind my top front teeth. There is no vocal sound. I totally agree with you that a verbal "atta boy" or "gooooood" is not as effective as a click. A C/T click needs to be quick, sharp, and nonverbal.

    My horse never confuses a my click and my cluck.

    Regardless of the details, I do love clicker training!
    I click with my tongue off the top of my mouth. It's more a a physical movement than "air" movement, and much different than my cluck cluck.

    I find using the mechanical clicker can be a little cumbersome when you have object to touch in hand and treats in the other (or fanny pack) so I click click with my tongue. Also good when on a trail ride, horse does something good she gets the clicks, so I don't have to fumble for the mechanical clicker or remember to bring it.
    I want a signature but I have nothing original to say except: "STHU and RIDE!!!

    Wonderful COTHER's I've met: belleellis, stefffic, snkstacres and janedoe726.



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