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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2004
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    Default KWPN publishes OCD index

    I saw this article earlier and thought it was very interesting:

    http://www.ridehesten.com/en/Heste-n...OxhyQ.facebook

    And I would be interested to see the numbers of the rest of the indexed stallions....
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #2
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    Default

    I agree.... it would be nice to see the rest of the numbers, BUT you have to be a member of the KWPN in Holland in order to do that. I'm a member of the KWPN-NA and have no access to those statistics.....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  3. #3
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    Aug. 15, 2010
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    I agree.... it would be nice to see the rest of the numbers, BUT you have to be a member of the KWPN in Holland in order to do that. I'm a member of the KWPN-NA and have no access to those statistics.....
    That is wrong! I can totally understand requiring membership of KWPN, but NA is an affiliate (isn't it the NA arm of KWPN?), so they should release that info, irregardless of what country you reside in, as long as you are a member. Seigi, are you going to ask NA to request the info for the NA membership?

    Very interesting article!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
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    Dec. 2, 2002
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    Default

    MysticOak - I've already voiced my concern with the board of the KWPN-NA and it's a subject they have raised with the KWPN. Let's hope that it has a good outcome....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    I saw this article earlier and thought it was very interesting:

    http://www.ridehesten.com/en/Heste-n...OxhyQ.facebook

    And I would be interested to see the numbers of the rest of the indexed stallions....
    I'm surprised this post has received so little attention. One could only wish the information was more readily available to US breeders. I for one, would consider paying for it (within reason).

    But, then I guess it falls into the "dirty little secret" pile. If the registry ignores, or doesn't provide such information to stakeholders, then it doesn't exist as an issue.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2006
    Location
    North Central Florida
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    MysticOak - I've already voiced my concern with the board of the KWPN-NA and it's a subject they have raised with the KWPN. Let's hope that it has a good outcome....
    We have dual membership in NA as well as Europe as we have had to transfer ownership of horses in Europe. However, I hail Siegi's request of the Board and may add to it the fact that it should not be necessary to belong to both to transfer ownership of horses in Europe.

    As soon as I get the transfer completed, I will obtain the statistics and post them. Stay tuned!
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.



  7. #7
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    Oct. 30, 2005
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    Default

    I would not say this falls into a "dirty little secret" pile. Nothing is being kept secret, you just have to be a member to have direct access. After all, the KWPN did all of the work and compiled the data, and they share it with the people who (mostly) funded them. Sakura Hill, yay! that would be appreciated. They say they have 24 dressage stallions they have indexed to date. This document from 2011-2012 gives the OC health/reliability index on 15 stallions, the majority of which are not well-known or possibly even available in the US, but Ampere, Wynton, Bordeaux, Apache are listed here under Dressage Stallions and then look to the left under Genetic Profile. The majority do not have an index given but say either n.v.t. or n.n.b. I don't know what those designations mean, but guessing n.n.b. means not enough data and n.v.t. applies to the older stallions who won't be getting an index. Check it out: http://cms.kwpn.nl/mediafile/0004/06...arboek_ENG.pdf. The dressage stallions begin around page 19. Older stallions will not retroactively be given an index, and the younger ones have to have enough data (foals) for reliability to be at least 55% or greater before receiving an index, which explains why the number of indexed dressage stallions is only 24 at this point.
    Last edited by Indy-lou; Jun. 8, 2013 at 12:14 PM. Reason: more info



  8. #8

    Default Misinterpretation....

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy-lou View Post
    I would not say this falls into a "dirty little secret" pile. Nothing is being kept secret, you just have to be a member to have direct access. After all, the KWPN did all of the work and compiled the data, and they share it with the people who (mostly) funded them.
    I'm not sure why you took that out of context, but...I have no issue with KWPN or paying for science-based articles.

    However, OCD is one of the "dirty little secrets" in breeding warmbloods. It is in the "best" interest of stallion owners to not have heritability indexes associated with one of their stallions, and registries generate a significant percentage of income from these owners. Those registries that don't collect offspring data with regard to OCD or other issues that can cause soundness issues are not doing any favors to the sport horse industry or their mare-owner members.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep. 29, 2006
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    I saw this article earlier and thought it was very interesting:

    http://www.ridehesten.com/en/Heste-n...OxhyQ.facebook

    And I would be interested to see the numbers of the rest of the indexed stallions....
    Does anyone else think that the study is taken out of context in that all onus is placed on the stallion, with all the research that has been conducted by various stud books, feed manufacturers, and others, what about all of the other influencial factors. e.g did the mares have OCD? Did all of the mares who's progeny were x-rayed hold the PROK certificate and confirmed free of OCD? When were the foals born? - Were they born earlier in the year with more restricted turn out? Were the mares fed the optimum rations of magnesium and copper during the last three months of gestation and first three months of lactation?

    It wasn't that long ago that the Hanoverian study revealed that OCD heridability was as low as 18% out of mares that had confirmed OCD and it wasn't so long ago that the KWPN acknowledged that despite x-raying stallions for a period of 25 years they had not managed to reduce the predispostion for OCD.

    So many factors to consider.



  10. #10
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    Default

    L & L, it would be helpful to know how they designed the study and how they weighted or corrected for variables like the mares and environment to understand it in context of the results. A solid understanding of statistical methods would probably also help in putting it into context, and that certainly is not an area I am competent in, I just know it makes my head spin and my eyes roll around in circles. The article mentions that the KWPN understands OCD as a multi-factorial condition right at the outset so perhaps those things were accounted for in some statistical manner. It would be nice if they could walk us through the study and their methods. Personally, I just view it as a potential tool in terms of odds that may or may not play out in a decision. Certainly the other trait indices (?) from the genetic profile section, for example height, have not always come to pass reliably in my own experience even with stallions holding a very high reliability score (90's) in that category. I got added height when I sought to subtract and vice versa. Still a bit of a crap-shoot. I do recall mention of the radiographing KWPN stallions thing for 25 years and not reducing the incidence of OCD, but as in the case of Bordeaux, he may have gotten an ocd class rating himself, but now with the screening his foals, is not seen as stallion that passes it on. That can happen too. All in all, I'd rather have the info than not have it, and I'm certainly glad to see that they recognize the importance of the non-genetic aspects as well.



  11. #11
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    Default

    It is my understanding that KWPN stallions in general have to have "clean" x-rays. Every now and then the KWPN will make an exception (as in the case of Bordeaux) because of bloodlines, etc., however, the presence of OCD will be noted for all to see. This practice does not eliminate OCD since there is no mandatory testing for mares but puts the risk on the shoulders of the breeders (where it belongs at that point).
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    This practice does not eliminate OCD since there is no mandatory testing for mares but puts the risk on the shoulders of the breeders (where it belongs at that point).
    This!



  13. #13
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