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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2010
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    5,589

    Default Can you buy chondriotin separately?

    Have you seen it anywhere? I don't like to buy the mixes I see for joint supplements because I get a much better deal buying the ingredients. I use msm and glucosamine, but I want to add chondriotin because of my mare's needs. (My vet thinks the feed supplements for hylauronic acid are not useful.) I haven't seen it and can't find it.

    I looked up the old thread on buying from bulk foods .com, or something like that, and it didn't seem that great of deal.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    May. 6, 2006
    Location
    Warren County, NJ
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    Default

    http://www.nutrabio.com/Products/chondroitin.htm

    I buy mine from above, use it in combo with adequan.
    I feed two scoops or servings a day, 3000mg, which is what you'll find in joint sups.
    I like it.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 26, 2007
    Location
    SE PA
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    1,484

    Default

    Springtime's J-Flex is just chondroitin

    http://www.springtimeinc.com/product...entrate/horses
    RIP Victor... I'll miss you, you big galumph.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar. 23, 2010
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    630



  5. #5
    Join Date
    May. 6, 2006
    Location
    Warren County, NJ
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    Default

    There are a few more out there, but honestly why pay more if you can get 100% pure no filler relatively cheap.

    The other ones out there :
    Flex Free
    http://www.valleyvet.biz/ct_detail.h...04ae5&gas=Flex Free
    Flexxion
    http://www.valleyvet.biz/ct_detail.h...as=chondroitin sulfate
    Flex-Force CS liquid & pellets
    http://www.valleyvet.biz/ct_detail.h...as=chondroitin sulfate
    http://www.valleyvet.biz/ct_detail.h...as=chondroitin sulfate



  6. #6
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    Jan. 26, 2010
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    5,589

    Default

    Thanks! I was ON Valley Vet last night and putting in chondriotin, and none of that came up! It's very annoying! I want to buy from them, though, because they have by far the best deal on vitamin e and selenium.

    So, Lieslot, I'm having trouble figuring out the cost per use with the way the nutrabio. site gives size. Do you have a cost per feeding or whatever? How long does, say, 1,000 grams, last? I'm not getting a sense of how much that is. The one on VV says how much you get with it per scoop, but the other one doesn't.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov. 30, 2009
    Posts
    775

    Default

    www.mybesthorse.com

    GREAT prices and free shipping!



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 6, 2007
    Posts
    898

    Default

    http://purebulk.com/chondroitin-sulfate-usa

    Very helpful people - lots of good stuff available



  9. #9
    Join Date
    May. 6, 2006
    Location
    Warren County, NJ
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    3,577

    Default

    Depends on how much you want to feed a day.

    I give 2 scoops, which equals 3000mg or 3g, daily.
    A 500g tub, will give 166 servings for $46.
    A 1000g tub, will give you 333 servings for $81 (nearly a year's supply).

    I like nutrabio, I was introduced to them via Dr Kellon's forum where it was suggested for those using acetyl l-carnitine for epsm-horses.

    They have lots of usable amino acids & sups that can be handy for us, horseowners.
    The other day I ordered l-glutamine from harmany equine, only to find nutrabio had it too and hugely cheaper. From now on I check them first.

    Also the thing with joint sups, we still don't know for sure if 'any' of them really work or end up where we want them. Until we know for sure I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but know I may be wasting my money, then I'd like to waste as little as pos and still have the best product I could find .

    If you use them, don't forget to enter the shipping code for $6.95 shipping.

    I agree with NorCalDressage, purebulk.com is another great option, I have never used them, but know people that have and were totally satisfied.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 4, 2009
    Location
    NCC DE
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    2,250

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
    Thanks! I was ON Valley Vet last night and putting in chondriotin, and none of that came up! It's very annoying! I want to buy from them, though, because they have by far the best deal on vitamin e and selenium.
    Check your spelling of chondroitin. If you spelled it the way you did here it's not going to find the products you want. It's a confusing word to spell correctly.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2010
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    Default

    mswillie--Oops! You're right.

    Thanks, Lieslot. Very useful. I'm with you on not knowing if it really works, but being horse people, we want to do our best. That's why I don't like to buy mixes. I like to buy just the ingredients I think work and add or take out as needed.

    So, what's I glutamine used for? From what I could see, maybe for ulcers?



  12. #12
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    May. 6, 2006
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    Warren County, NJ
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    Default

    It helps heal ulcers. It's in ulcer & hindgut medication, like Succeed (oat flour, l-glutamine & l-threonine), SmartGut, Uckele's GUT and a few more.

    Seems we are thinking along the same lines . Usually I use a supplement marketed for equines first and once I think (of course very subjective ) it works, then I see if I can make up the ingredients myself and it does save me money.

    Another example is the respiratory sups often containing N-Acetyl Cysteine, which helps expels mucus. I started using nutrabio's, for my older guy with RAO and it works as well as when I buy an equine marketed product. Plus I feel I know I got the real stuff from them in the amount I feed, something with those horse supplements, the label says one thing, but you aren't really sure the amounts they say are truly in there.

    I feel comfortable doing so and save quite a few bucks that way.

    Purebulk.com does have a wider range however, I may venture over there one day .



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan. 1, 2003
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,709

    Default

    I find your vet's advice a bit confusing, seeing as how HA is one of the very few oral joint supplement ingredients with any published scientific literature that suggests it might do some good. What is his logic for recommending all of the other ingredients over HA?



  14. #14
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    Jan. 26, 2010
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    Default

    I feed msm and glucosamine already as a standard protocol for horses over 10-12. I asked my vet about the effectiveness of feeding HA, and she said she didn't think they were very effective and was probably a waste of money. She said I would be better off adding chondroitin. She is a lameness specialist and does this a lot. She's done a lot of joint injections versus seeing supplements, so I guess it's based on what she sees.

    I found this on Rutger's site:
    "Ingredient: Hyaluronate sodium
    Administration: Intravenous (IV); Oral
    Research: Clinical research on the efficacy of oral forms of hyaluronan-based supplements has yet to be completed. Intravenous hyaluronic acid (HA) treatment has been shown to improve lameness scores by interacting with cells in the joint fluid and reducing local inflammation and subsequent pain. The best use for HA is thought to be in horses suffering from acute injury or mild to moderate joint inflammation where its anti-inflammatory properties will be the most beneficial/therapeutic.

    There is some debate regarding the efficacy of treatment with an intra-articular injection (into the joint) of high molecular weight HA versus low molecular weight HA. Very little clinical research has been conducted on this, and the existing studies do not provide unequivocal evidence that molecular weight has a direct pharmacological effect on efficacy."
    http://esc.rutgers.edu/ask_expert/ate_nuts.htm

    Interesting information on that page.

    This is from HorseAdvice.com
    "Robert N. Oglesby DVM
    Moderator
    Username: Dro

    Post Number: 15600
    Registered: 1-1997
    Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 9:24 am:
    Hello Michele,
    There continues to be no scientific or clinical research on the use of HA orally in humans or horses that I can find. We are not recommending its use orally.
    DrO"

    When looking at the research I think you looked at, this was Dr's O's response:
    "Ann I received the fax and looked over the work and found the results not significant. Yes the oral hyaluronate had an increase in circulating levels but the level of increase and the variations in the control and injected horse levels were all of similar magnitudes: it is uncertain if this indicated a medication increase and if it does it is unknown if this would be clinically helpful. It's use should be considered experimental.
    DrO"



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul. 6, 2007
    Posts
    898

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Montanas_Girl View Post
    I find your vet's advice a bit confusing, seeing as how HA is one of the very few oral joint supplement ingredients with any published scientific literature that suggests it might do some good. What is his logic for recommending all of the other ingredients over HA?
    Agree -



  16. #16
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    Jan. 26, 2010
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    Default

    NorCal and Montana--Do you have any link to the published scientific literature? The only one I could find was the one Dr. O responded to above.

    "Which means that oral HA does have some effectiveness and is better than what I had initially thought. With that said it is still expensive in comparison to other oral joint supplements and the studies have not been conducted to determine if it is any better than other supplements or better than injectable HA. I know it is not better than Adequan as the research on Adequan suggest some cartilage rebuild where as HA does not." http://horsekinetics.com/oral-hyalur...nge-of-opinion

    More searching and the only places I can see that say the studies say it works are places selling it. Everything else I'm seeing says only injected HA has been proven to work. It's interesting you guys feel so sure it works. I wonder if it's good advertising or there's anything to it.

    Anyway, send out a big order to purebulk for the chondroitin, and got some biotin and a few other things because it was so cheap. They were plumb out of sylvia, which is a bummer, as it was WAY cheaper to buy it there than Trader Joe's. They sent me an email saying the biotin could be dangerous if I didn't know how to measure it, and I said it was for horses. Nice to know they check.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul. 6, 2007
    Posts
    898

    Default

    https://www.kinetictech.net/pdf/Sodi...icacyStudy.pdf

    https://www.kinetictech.net/pdf/ConquerStudy_EVJ.pdf

    Yes, both of those are from Kinetic, which sells Conquer, but I didn't have the time to go searching at the moment.....



  18. #18
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    Jul. 6, 2007
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    898

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
    I know it is not better than Adequan as the research on Adequan suggest some cartilage rebuild where as HA does not." http://horsekinetics.com/oral-hyalur...nge-of-opinion
    As far as I know, nothing has been shown or suggested that it is able to "rebuild" cartilage. Once it's gone, it's gone. I thought the point of Adequan is stop/prevent further damage, it increases HA levels in the joint, decreases destructive enzymes, etc.

    FWIW Dr. McIlwraith of CSU (where the Adequan study was done) is not exactly a fan of the Adequan study results. Although he does find it useful for IA hock injections. But he doesn't seem to be impressed with IM studies of Adequan.



  19. #19
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    Jan. 26, 2010
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    Default

    Yeah, I kind of saw that study, though I don't know if I understand all of those big words. It seems to show that after surgery it has some usefulness. I don't know how useful that is as a normal supplement, though. If you can find something without an agenda that shows it actually works as an oral additive, I'd like to see it. That's my issue--it's kind of expensive and it's probably not harmful, but is it helping anything to feed it orally? I think msm has some use, just from my own experience, and glucosamine. That's why I like to feed individual ingredients, as I can add or take away and see if it makes any difference.

    I'm as bad as anyone else in just wanting to buy all of the cool things to add to my horses' feed, but I'm trying to keep it down to a minimum if there's no real use beyond depleting my wallet.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan. 1, 2003
    Location
    Tennessee
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    1,709

    Default

    The second link that NorCal provided is a legitimate, peer-reviewed article publised in the Journal of Equine Veterinary Medicine. Whether that study can be extrapolated to treating/preventing osteoarthritis remains to be seen, but it is at least SOMETHING promising, which is more than can be said for most of the other oral joint supplement ingredients...

    Honestly, oral joint supplements are best chosen by trial-and-error. No one REALLY knows what might or might not work, but the only thing they'll hurt (the mainstream ones, anyways) are your wallet.



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