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  1. #1
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    Aug. 21, 2004
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    Katy, Texas
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    162

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    Reality check for True Believers:

    http://katyforge.com/somehorses.html



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2004
    Location
    Katy, Texas
    Posts
    162

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    Reality check for True Believers:

    http://katyforge.com/somehorses.html



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 1999
    Location
    Midland, NC, USA
    Posts
    7,240

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    Ooh, printing that out for hubby to carry in his shoeing rig!

    JenniferS



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 4, 2003
    Location
    Dallas, Georgia
    Posts
    16,616

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    Amen!

    While mine are barefoot, they are so because they can be. They're pure pleasure horses with sound hoof structure. If my Percheron started pulling, she'd be shod immediately. My app will never be sound for anything other than trail, so no need to even speculate.

    You can't say that all horses must be barefoot, just like you can't say that all horses must be shod. We've taken a natural creature and put it in an "unnatural" realm. We must care for them to the best of our ability to maintain their health and soundness in this unnatural realm.
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- "When they try to tell you these are your Golden years, don't believe 'em.... It's rust."



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 3, 2002
    Location
    SW MI
    Posts
    1,163

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    I agree. Like all things with horses, inevitably you end up with people who have a religious devotion to ONE method. Each horse is an individual and must be treated as such.

    We have two horses. My Morgan mare has incredible feet, and stays barefoot - even doing endurance riding. If she ever shows signs of needing shoeing, I'll do it, but she has been fine without. My husband's QH gelding has shoes on all four, the front shoes with clips. Two different horses, two completely different types of hooves.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul. 23, 2003
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    483

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    He is doing what he is accusing others of doing making his OPINION fact...find me the studies, preferaably new studies that show a horse with a good balanced trim and a good roll can not jump as high or run as fast as a shod horse!! I have never seen any studies done on this personally. (I dont like strassur one bit myself, much to agessive!) I dont beleive that EVERY horse can go barefoot, but I do beleive with a good balanced trim with a good roll and the advent of old macs MOST horses can go barefoot with a dedicated owner...notice I said a dedicated owner, one truely dedicated to doing what it takes once those shoes come off to make the the transistion work...now there are studies and proof that nailing a shoe on a horse does cause damage, that it holds the foot static, etc. I know when I got my mare misty, she had recently foundered before I got her and had pretty bad rotation and I did tons of studying on the subject...went with a farrer who specialized in this issue and went with barefeet trimed every 3-5 days the first 4 months, every 7 -10 days the next 4 months and every 10-12 days for the next 4 months, and made sure the mare had good consistant movement on soft ground...she is 100% sound, coffin bone is right back where it should be, actually it was fairly quickly, I had xrays done every 3 months while the work was going on and you would never know that she had foundered in her life. So I take that article with a grain of salt, he was just stating opinions not facts.
    Any man who can render himself unconscious with a pretzel, isn't smart enough to lead the Free World



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2003
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    996

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    I agree Estelle. Most of us are not Anti SHOE, or 100 percent barefoot, BUT,

    We just want to know why barefoot is not presented as a viable option by most farriers, and why are there so many GOD D**%& BAD farriers out there?? Why do I have to hire a specialist for a good barefoot trim, as many of the farriers either refuse, or lame the horse??? Why isn't this common knowledge, and how come everyone, VETS included, have a different opinion? How come no one wants to go barefoot until the horse has NO OTHER OPTION? How come, story after story (mine included), when the shoes are removed, things are MUCH BETTER??

    This Tom reminds me of everything I hated about my old farriers. Always right, couldn't listen, aggressive when not agreed with immediately.

    For folks just tuning in, read the "pulling horseshoes" thread. Regardless of your stance on the barefoot/shoe issue, in my opinion, Mr. Tom has a real tendency to be aggressive and mean about things, prefering to put down and ridicule rather than explain his positions.

    Color me... "NOT IMPRESSED".

    But this is an important point. YOU CONTROL THE FATE of these farriers. Without your horses to work on, they are out of a job fast. If you are persistent and educate yourself on what you want, you will find the right person.

    How many of you REALLY know how the hoof functions? Who can name the parts of the hoof? Who keeps up with all the current literature on the subject (admittedly exhausting!!) and does a bit of critical thinking?

    I am so sad to say, I never bothered to learn these things. Too complex, too hard. BUT, I was forced to learn, because I risked losing my horse. And it has been such a rude awakening. BUT it is just so sad it was as a result of considering having to retire my horse. It was getting that bad.

    AND, for those that say the top don't go barefoot, that is not true. They ARE out there, and they do well. There are GP dressage riders, there is a classical dressage trainer (forget his name) in Spain that has all barefoot, and I believe there are many others. MANY horses compete sucessfully barefoot, and the numbers are growing.

    There are quite a few endurance riders now who ride barefoot, or with boots. Old macs were developed by one (endurance rider), in Tasmania, I believe. It's pretty rough out there, from what I have heard.

    C'MON, realistically, how many hours per day does your horse work? All day? Over rocks? Mine doesn't. He runs around in his pasture all day, and then we train one hour 4-5x per week, and hack out the rest.

    He is doing beautifully, and he probably never even needed shoes.

    So, as I said, I let my money do the talking. I pay alot for the specialist, and he deserves it. He does a great job. The farriers in my area will never get another cent. That makes a pretty loud statement, and they do hear, regardless of what they tell you. It may not hurt much, but they notice it.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 1999
    Location
    Midland, NC, USA
    Posts
    7,240

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    "find me the studies, preferaably new studies that show a horse with a good balanced trim and a good roll can not jump as high or run as fast as a shod horse!!"

    Gosh, Estelle, I would settle for just seeing a handful of barefoot horse proving they could jump as high or run as fast as a shod horse.... I'm sure since barefoot is so beneficial there is a Grand Prix jumper or Advanced eventer out there that is barefoot. You would think the barefoot PR folks, since they are quite good you must admit, would realize what a tremendous benefit it would be to mention these horses by name on their websites and in their literature.

    Unless they don't exist. Hmm, now that is a problem. Might also explain why such a study hasn't been done, since a control group of ZERO members makes the accumulation of meaningful data difficult.

    The article clearly states that BOTH approaches can be suitable, and only condemns those whose religious adherence to ONE approach leads to lamed or crippled horses. At least, that's the way I read it, but I'm not a zealot of any sort unless you count the wellfare of the horse.

    JenniferS



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 23, 2003
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    483

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    OH I totally agree with you...too many old school farriers left out there...it's frustrating trying to get a good one and one that has bothered to keep up with what is new out there as far as barefoot goes...just stuck in their old ways refusing to move forward and advance...do you know the royal lippazaner stallions are barefoot, always have been, but IM sure their farriers dont have a clue right? *LOL* at least according to the ones stuck and refusing to see how good barefoot really is for almost all horses. There are also baredfoot jumpers, barrel horses and endurance horses taking home the ribbons time after time, but that cant be, oh my, they have no shoes! The guy that wrote that article was simply stating HIS opinions and trying to make them fact...what ticked me off is that he was accusing barefoot proponants of doing exactly what he is doing in that article...
    Any man who can render himself unconscious with a pretzel, isn't smart enough to lead the Free World



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 23, 2003
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    483

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    I dont need studies I see it all the time at shows, barefoot horses beating shod horses in jumping, dressage, barrels....that's the study I use the cases I see with my own eyes...A horse does not need to be a world class show hores to prove this point, horses that are basically equal in talent and build for their discipline at regular shows in every state speak as loudly to this issue as any other horse out there. Although Im sure there are world class competitors out there winning with no shoes also.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThirdCharm:
    "find me the studies, preferaably new studies that show a horse with a good balanced trim and a good roll can not jump as high or run as fast as a shod horse!!"

    Gosh, Estelle, I would settle for just seeing a handful of barefoot horse proving they could jump as high or run as fast as a shod horse.... I'm sure since barefoot is so beneficial there is a Grand Prix jumper or Advanced eventer out there that is barefoot. You would think the barefoot PR folks, since they are quite good you must admit, would realize what a tremendous benefit it would be to mention these horses by name on their websites and in their literature.

    Unless they don't exist. Hmm, now that is a problem. Might also explain why such a study hasn't been done, since a control group of ZERO members makes the accumulation of meaningful data difficult.

    The article clearly states that BOTH approaches can be suitable, and only condemns those whose religious adherence to ONE approach leads to lamed or crippled horses. At least, that's the way I read it, but I'm not a zealot of any sort unless you count the wellfare of the horse.

    JenniferS <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Any man who can render himself unconscious with a pretzel, isn't smart enough to lead the Free World



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2001
    Posts
    15,232

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    Hey Tom, if I write an article does it become reality as well?

    And this is coming from a man that thinks the way to impress women is to show your arse?

    http://web.wt.net/~stovall/impress.htm

    I guess if THAT is the truth/reality as well-then you should have QUITE a harem from this BB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/lol.gif



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2004
    Location
    Katy, Texas
    Posts
    162

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Estelle:
    He is doing what he is accusing others of doing making his OPINION fact...find me the studies, preferaably new studies that show a horse with a good balanced trim and a good roll can not jump as high or run as fast as a shod horse!!
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Horses wearing shoes have established the benchmarks of performance in racing and jumping. All the "barefoot is best" folks need to do in order to demonstrate their fantasies of barefoot superiority are somehow related to reality is set a few track records, win a few stakes, grand prix, go-rounds at the NFR - and perhaps the odd puissance.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct. 18, 2000
    Posts
    22,424

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    The Royal Lippizans never work outside the manege. (no accent available on my keyboard)

    So though they work very hard and are majestic animals expresing an almost lost art - they ain't galloping a gravel road with 80 horses and 15 couple hounds for 3 hours 3 days a week.

    It's unfair to a horse to make that comparison.

    You gotta compare apples to apples.

    I don't like prima donna farriers any more than the next person. As a matter of fact, I've seen more machismo, posturing and blustering in the farrier profession than I see in the rest of the population. I'm happy to work with a prima donna or jerkoff farrier if he does a good job with my horse. Shoes or not.

    I don't hire a doctor based on his bedside manner - I hire him based on a set of criteria; licensing, board certification, education, experience. In most professions those are quantifiable - although not a guarantee of competence - it's something.

    Any wacko in the horse world can set up a website, advocate some crazy notion of training or shoeing and immediately have a host of loyal followers groveling at their feet and lambasting any mendicant who doesn't worship at the alter.

    Knowing that - I don't jump on bandwagons. If there is any study performed by a scientific or educational institution anywhere in the world that has followed horses throughout their lives and can show in what circumstances a horse should be shod or not - show me.

    Otherwise - y'all are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2003
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    996

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    LMH,

    TOO FUNNY!!! I hope he wears underwear now!

    In my opinion, it was sweet justice,

    "after all, I had just done a pretty good job of spurring a finals horse in the fat neck."

    I bet the horse enjoyed that one Tom. Nothing turns a woman on more than watching a horse get spurred in the neck.

    YiPPEEEE Yiiiii AYYYYY!!!!

    OHHH, and for the record, in case anyone gets confused, I am not saying to hire your farrier because he is a nice guy, no more than I am saying to fire your farrier because he is an ASS.

    Hire him because he is educated, does a good job, and makes your horse sound and happy. Fire him if he is incompetant and hurts your horse.

    BUT, when I started researching, I found out that I had not been judging my farriers properly, because I didn't know what to look for.

    Life for me and my horse dramatically improved when I decided to do some critical thinking.

    I have read many different arguments, explanations, from many different sources. I suggest that every horse owner do the same, and make their own informed decisions.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2001
    Posts
    15,232

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    I don't think there is ANY way to make a legitimate argument that horses perform better JUST because of shoes....the last time *I* looked several "performance" horses HAVE been known to have a little chemical assistance now and then as well...whether it is within legal dosages or not http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif from race horses on large amounts of bute to joint injections to other pain relievers,etc...

    NOW I am NOT saying any of this is bad or not-but it is not so simple as to say OH they win because of shoes or because of being barefoot-for a man so insistent on double blind studies with a summary paper available for peer review, surely that makes sense to Tom?



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct. 5, 1999
    Location
    A place called vertigo
    Posts
    12,425

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    http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_rolleyes.gif How much do I enjoy writing a monthly check to the farrier that is equivalent to a car payment? Mine are in shoes only when they must be in shoes.

    My new horse had been barefoot all her life (5 years). She is so much better in shoes.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb. 8, 2002
    Posts
    4,941

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most (if not ALL...more likely) of the horses that competed in the Olympics shod? I would think that they get the best of the best of everything in horse care. Just a thought....



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2004
    Location
    Katy, Texas
    Posts
    162

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Estelle:
    I dont need studies I see it all the time at shows, barefoot horses beating shod horses in jumping, dressage, barrels...
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Do tell? If that's true, can you name a single barefooted horse that has ever won a race at any parimutuel track in the United States? A grand prix or puissance at any USEF "AA" or "A" show? A PRCA or WPRA barrel race? If not, why not?
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    that's the study I use the cases I see with my own eyes...A horse does not need to be a world class show hores to prove this point, horses that are basically equal in talent and build for their discipline at regular shows in every state speak as loudly to this issue as any other horse out there.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    You appear to be saying that the mere participation in an activity at the lowest
    levels is somehow equal in significance to winning the same activity at the highest levels. One hates to burst your bubble, but neither all horses, nor all contests, are created equal. The horse that wins first in an open jumper class of one at the Lower Podunk Annual Playday is most assuredly not the equal of the horse that wins a grand prix at an "AA" rated show.
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    Although Im sure there are world class competitors out there winning with no shoes also.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Alas, I fear your confidence is misplaced.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2003
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    996

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    Flash, I know what you mean.

    I don't see a cost savings in trimming vs. shoeing here, because I have to pay someone to come from France, and I have to have it done more often than with shoes (to address the long toes).

    My horse has had shoes since the age of four, and now he is so much better without them.

    My point? Find what works!! I am glad that you found something that works!! I am glad I found something that works!!

    Now, let's get rid of the idiot farriers that don't know how to shoe, and make sure they DO NOT WORK.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr. 24, 2002
    Location
    Upper Peninsula, MI
    Posts
    1,730

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    Great article. If only I could send it to the barefoot only person that nearly ruined my horse.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> She's created a cult of hoof butchery <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree. The person that did my horse chopped off his toe, and half his foot. He was a mess. Went from being sound for 14 years to dead lame in an hour. She told me it had to get worse before it got better http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_rolleyes.gif But she couldn't tell me what was wrong in the first place.

    I found a great farrier that was able to fix the mess. Two hours of work later I had a sound horse. Some horses really can't go barefoot.
    -Tami-

    [Paint It Black - "Kiddo"]



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