[Whistler]

I posted before about having 'winter horse' i.e. is my horse going nuts or is it just the weather
I've only had my horse one year and this is our first winter together. He's a 13 year old TB. In the past month he has gotten VERY forward at the canter and rushing fences. He had a huge spook the other day, and he rarely rarely spooks. That was the same day he took off with me in the arena. he is not the type to be worked down, rather, he gets 'worked up' as he's very very sensitive. It's not really the spookiness, I just feel like he wants to RUN. He's been like this for about a month.Some days we can't even jump, he's just too pumped.

To put some weight on him about 4 months ago i added a flake of alfalfa to his all grass hay feedings. About a month after that I began feeding him Triple Crown senior, but only the lowest amount recommended. He also gets some veggie oil for his coat. He looks fantastic now, vet says he is at the perfect weight and condition.

So - what do we do? Do we eliminate the alfalfa and go back to all grass? The TC Senior? Add magnesium or a calming supplement? Everyone has different opinions at my barn (of course). My vet doesn't think alfalfa is all that bad and likes him on it, his last trainer said NO alfalfa for this horse, and a friend of mine said, "are you crazy?? TC senior is loaded with sugar! Duh! GEt the TC lite." Well, I never thought it made horses hot and it's been about 4 months...

Could a magnesium supplement be used for the winter?

Just confused and want my calm boy back and want to be able to jump a course w/out him hitting the gas so hard I don't like being a timid rider and i'm not having fun.

[babyeventer23]

You listed a bunch of possible solutions. The best thing to do is try them individually, one by one. Personally, I would start by eliminating the alfalfa and see what happens. I have a mare that I put on it to gain a little weight and get the extra calcium, and she was nearly unrideable on it. I had noticed she was a lot more "up", but didn't even connect the two.

That's an easy one to try and eliminate as a possible option reason quickly. Is the past month the coldest month you've had? The issues have just developed recently, right?

[SuckerForHorses]

and a friend of mine said, "are you crazy?? TC senior is loaded with sugar! Duh! GEt the TC lite."

TC Senior is not loaded with sugar, its NSC level is quite low at 11-something%. It looks like it has sugar because it has that dark brown texture that sweet feed has, so it looks like its covered in molasses, but its really oil to add fat.

[SuckerForHorses]

I agree with eliminating one thing at a time to ensure you're really getting a clear picture of what changes.

I would start by eliminating the alfalfa. Give him a month and see how he responds. Since his last trainer would presumably know him well, she may know that he cannot do alfalfa.

If he is still exciteable, do not reintroduce alfalfa, but take away the TC Senior. If he still does not resume to his normal self, have a vet check him out. Could be pain from somethign else (ulcers, etc.)

[Whistler]

Cool. I did not think TC senior contained much sugar at all but my friend was convinced that molasses was what 'made it all stick together' - LOL

Anyway, I think i will go the route of eliminating alfalfa first. Previous trainer was on to something I guess, although i took it with a grain of salt because some of her other ideas didn't make a lot of sense.

Thanks baby eventer and suckerforhorses!

[showponies]

I didnt read all the post, but a life time of thbds, the best way that I have put weight on.. and keep engery low, Timothy hay(OG has too much sugar) soaked tim/alf pellets, a full bucket a day( 3 dry scoops and soak until fluffy), I love cool calories and for a sensitive mare, smart pak calm pellets. And a balance vitamin.

[LookinSouth]

TC Senior is not loaded with sugar, its NSC level is quite low at 11-something%. It looks like it has sugar because it has that dark brown texture that sweet feed has, so it looks like its covered in molasses, but its really oil to add fat.

This is correct . So many people refer to TC Senior and TC Complete as "sweet feeds" and its just inaccurate.

I am with those that say eliminate the alfalfa first. I have known a handful of horses that have been sensitive to it.

[pattnic]

He could just need more turnout, assuming that's a possibilty. Horses are cold-weather animals, and as such, are usually more "up" in cooler temperatures.

Otherwise, you've been given some good suggestions.

[SuckerForHorses]

He could just need more turnout, assuming that's a possibilty. Horses are cold-weather animals, and as such, are usually more "up" in cooler temperatures.

Otherwise, you've been given some good suggestions.

I agree with more turnout also, as much as possible. They have energy to expend, and if they can't do it in turnout, you're going to be dealing with it under saddle

[deltawave]

I have always been one to uphold that no particular feed could make a horse hot, GENERALLY SPEAKING and that it was the calories and not the type of food. But one of mine does seem to freak out with alfalfa.

Remember that this time of year is mud and ice season, so even horses that are turned out do a LOT of standing around because the ground really is not conducive to playing or just wandering freely. Even the active TB I have living here this winter, who is a man in motion most of the time, spends a LOT of time just standing when the ground is awful. He's a smart guy.

The thing that struck me was a former trainer saying not to use alfalfa--maybe that advice is worth heeding. I'd personally start with that. There are PLENTY of ways to get calories into a horse without alfalfa, although again I don't think it's a universally bad thing.

And finally, my old event mare would turn into a fire-breathing dragon EVERY spring, and it wasn't until the first couple of jump schools were done and over with (I had to warn everyone not to watch, I actually LOVED her ferociousness and she NEVER made a mistake but was . . . forward) she was a nut. Then she'd settle down to business.

[monalisa]

Even my very calm WB mare has been "up" recently due mostly to the weather. But I would certainly get rid of the alfalfa. Try Denji if you need to put on calories, or beet pulp. Certain feeds do in fact have different effect on some horses.

[JumperTurns]

I agree on ditching the alfalfa. I tried it once for about a week with my TB and he was a total nut that whole week. Took him off it, back to normal. Same thing with LMF Senior, when he was on it he was insane, on to TC Lite, back to normal. You can try other things before a calming supplement. To add more calories I really like beet pulp, flax seed, and/or rice bran.

[rcloisonne]

This is correct . So many people refer to TC Senior and TC Complete as "sweet feeds" and its just inaccurate.

Here's the first three ingredients in TC Complete:

Shredded Beet Pulp, Cane Molasses, Whole Oats,...

With molasses in 2nd place and oats at 3rd, this is darn close to being a sweet feed.

Apparently, not many here actually read feed bag labels.

[SuckerForHorses]

Here's the first three ingredients in TC Complete:


With molasses in 2nd place and oats at 3rd, this is darn close to being a sweet feed.

Apparently, not many here actually read feed bag labels.

http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/artic...rown-horsefood
And here you see the NSC values of Triple Crown Senior, which are lower than Nutrena SafeChoice

[SuckerForHorses]

I agree that the TC Complete is not a good choice, high NSC value. TC Senior though...that gets my vote.

[SonnysMom]

I am actually pulling my arab off of Horseman's Edge since he has become the fire breathing dragon since about mid January.
This is my third winter for this horse and he was not this way the last two winters.
I changed his feed from 1.5 scoops of sweet feed to 1 scoop sweet and 1 scoop Horseman's Edge. He needed a little more weight. I was trying to do the right thing and not give him too much sweet feed.
Finnegan has already been on a daily calming supplement for about a year. (Smart Calm).
The sweet feed this barn feeds is actually very dry- it could almost be called COB.
For Finnegan I do not think he can tolerate the Horseman's Edge. Not sure if it is the sugar or another ingredient but it is the only real change that may have caused the change in his behavior.

[SuckerForHorses]

I was trying to do the right thing and not give him too much sweet feed.

Do the best thing for him, and don't give him any sweet feed

There are so many other feed items to put weight on and provide calories.

[Larbear]

What condition was your tb in before you got him? How much turnout does he get and how often is he worked? I'm just wondering if his behaviour is a result of feeling better, ie fit and at a good weight.

[deltawave]

With molasses in 2nd place and oats at 3rd, this is darn close to being a sweet feed.

Apparently, not many here actually read feed bag labels.

Well, if ingredient #1 is 75% of the product and ingredients #2 and #3 are fractions but higher than #s 4 and 5, that would give you an identical label as a product where ingredient #1 is 10% of the product, ingredient #2 is 9% and ingredient #3 is 8%. You do have to dig a little farther, indeed. And do some math.

[LookinSouth]

Apparently, not many here actually read feed bag labels.

Um, I can assure you I DO read feed bag labels . I just don't make assumptions about a particular feed based solely on the first three ingredients


To be clear, I never said I recommended TCC for the horse in question on this thread. I was simply in agreement with another poster that alot of people misunderstand TCC and TC Senior as "sweet" feeds which they are NOT. They are both BP based feeds and classified as such. TCC has the addition of some oats, hence the higher NSC%.
Call TC and ask them yourself if you don't want to take my word for it.

A sweet feed is more along the lines of Blue Seal Charger, Pacer or Rider. Or TC 14% Performance. These are not beet pulp based feeds and they are largely recognized as "sweet" feeds because they consist of corn, oats and molasses and the fiber content of sweet feeds usually is much lower than BP based feeds.

That said, despite the 20% NSC TCC is a great feed for many horses, mine included.

Lets do some comparison since some on this board seem to think the addition of some oats and molasses to a BP based feed means "sweet" and "high in sugar".

NSC%

TC Senior: 11.7%
TC Complete: 20.6%
BS Hunter: 33%
BS Sport: 40%
Nutrena Safe Choice: 22.8%
BS Charger Sweet: 39%
BS Pacer Sweet: 48%
BS Vintage Senior: 20%
Nutrena LiteBalance: 17%
Strategy: 28%


As you can see here TCC still has a lower NSC% than Safechoice which is actually marketed as a "controlled starch grain" and a significantly lower NSC% than many other grains on the market including pelleted grains that are not considered "sweet" feeds.