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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2008
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    167

    Default Equitation AND Hunters = non existent?

    Why is it that no one seems to be able to keep from pinching with their knee and swinging their lower leg back over a fence in the hunter ring? How is it that Louise Serio had the only picture from the Hunter Spectacular that had a decent base of support?

    I understand at the lower levels that many riders are still building their foundation and muscle (not that in my very personal opinion you have any business jumping if you can't hold your position over a fence). I just don't understand why you are jumping over 3ft if you can't even keep your heels down let alone keep your leg in place.

    Yes, I know the rider isn't being judged. It just seems that back in the day the hunter riders had beautiful positions to go along with their beautiful horses. What are we missing? When did be okay for just the horse to look good?

    Are we seeing that form does not lead to function anymore? Are the horses so much nicer that a good position doesn't need to add to the picture?

    On a side note I do recognize that there are good hunter riders out there. I'm just wondering why they aren't the majority. And I'm trying to start a thoughtful discussion, not an argument



  2. #2
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    Mar. 16, 2009
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    Default

    You do realize that several of the riders you saw in that picture collection are juniors who currently compete in the Big Eq, right?

    I don't like that most riders seem to throw eq out the window in the hunter ring, but they are focused on "selling" the horse. How powerful the jump is, staying out of the way, etc.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 4, 2008
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    Default

    JustMyStyle, which group of people specifically would you like to discuss? New riders learning to jump? Top Hunter Riders? or Junior Riders?

    Could we have some background on you? Are you a Jr. Pro or AmmY? What and how often do you compete?

    I'm not trying to single you out, but wondering if you are at that level, riding those horses? I don't see the riders falling off, the horses are going great, and jumping super round, which is in fact what the judge's are biting to date. An eq horse doesn't jump that round, they hold a steadier topline that allows your leg to stay in place better. The eq riders are using a short crest release usually and the restricts the amount of reach the horse can produce with it's neck.
    Some of that position may be the riders playing up the drama, but my guess is rather the rider's are staying out of the horse's way, and letting it get up off the ground without any interference from them.

    I'm not saying that all the ducking, knee pinching, and laying on the neck is in theory, incorrect and poor equitation; but I am pretty sure they judge the HORSE in hunters, and we want to be ooooohed. Also, I am fairly positive that any of the riders in that gallery has a really solid base of support.
    Last edited by mrsbradbury; Feb. 20, 2012 at 07:31 AM. Reason: took a moment to view gallery before finishing post



  4. #4
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    May. 6, 2003
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    1,888

    Default

    Oh, good, we haven't had this discussion in AT LEAST a month.

    Isn't this the same poster who was wondering if it was ok to put 7 strides in a 4 or 5?
    According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.



  5. #5
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    Mar. 22, 2005
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    Default

    Run a search... you'll find many heated discussions on this...

    That said, is it too early for popcorn and drinks?



  6. #6
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    Jun. 21, 1999
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by supershorty628 View Post
    Run a search... you'll find many heated discussions on this...

    That said, is it too early for popcorn and drinks?
    Topics like these are why god created baileys and mimosas.
    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Prove it....Otherwise, you're just coming off as a whackjob.
    Founding member of the "Not too Klassy for Boxed Wine" Clique



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2008
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    Default

    I'm just seeing that from earlier decades (such as the 70's and 80's) it seemed the riders looked as good as their horses. I'm really not trying to bash anyone, I'm honestly curious.

    mrsbradbury: it sounds like you think the quality of horses has gone up and the horse is throwing riders legs back. Is this a top big (AA 3'6" and up) hunter thing that turned into a trend? As to my background, I've never done hunters over fences and haven't shown at a rated show in many years, hence why I'm curious. I used to work with "problem horses" and teach beginner lessons so I am considered a pro....and I wish I was still a Jr
    Also, I was taught that a good base of support shows when you jump. I would agree that at that level you would have a good base of support, so why don't we see it? It's clearly not keeping the horses from jumping spectacularly. Is equitation over rated?

    loshad - I was asking how people felt about a very green horse (over fences) getting a double add in a five stride line.

    supershorty628 - I searched hunter equitation and didn't pull anything relevant, any key word search discussions?



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2010
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    North Carolina
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    Default

    PART of the answer is that the Forward Seat (ala Vladimir Littauer and Jane Marshall Dillon) went out of fashion.

    Riders are not schooled in HOW to keep a stable lower leg, HOW to grip effectively (with the calf muscles NOT the knees which leads to the swinging lower leg), and now everyone uses the crest release, which under the Forward Seat system is only for beginning riders, intermediate riders then went on to the low release (hands lower on the sides of the neck) and advanced riders went on to the following release (GM's automatic release.)

    NO Forward Seat instructor I've had ever took any excuses for not keeping the lower leg at the girth at all times, on the flat or over jumps. Not giving the horse's head all the room it wanted over the jump was a major sin.

    Jane Marshall Dillon wrote a book, available used, called "Form Over Fences", a great book, heavily illustrated, full of what not to do and how to fix it. The nice thing is that she shows what is good and bad for beginning, intermediate and advanced riders. A great resource for developing the riding instructors' eyes.

    And back in those days a rider was not considered advanced unless they could consistently jump 4 feet in good form (including keeping a light contact over the jump.) Due to the problems with my undiagnosed MS I was considered a perpetual beginner in jumping because I could not jump higher than 3'6". My, how times have changed!!!



  9. #9
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    Jan. 23, 2000
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    Default

    Um, do you honestly think that Scott Stewart and John French "are not schooled on HOW to keep a stable lower leg"?



    OP, do a search. This is beyond tiresome.
    ---
    They're small hearts.



  10. #10
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    May. 6, 2003
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    Default

    Trixie, she probably wouldn't let Richard Spooner ride her horse.

    I still ride like a coked up lemur, so I'm not going to judge.
    According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.



  11. #11
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    Jan. 23, 2000
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    Default

    Richard Spooner probably doesn't want to ride bareback with two dressage whips anyway.

    Maybe they're riding "like that" because the horses were crooked in the womb. Like, counterbalancing it.
    ---
    They're small hearts.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2011
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    282

    Default

    I hate when people critique professionals equitation. They all do little things to get the best jump out of their horse. So what if their leg swings back and hits their butt! If they find all their distances and gets a terrific jump out of their horse, who gives a crap!? I would kill to ride like Scott Stewart, or Louise Serio, heels down or not.



  13. #13
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    Apr. 4, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by loshad View Post
    Trixie, she probably wouldn't let Richard Spooner ride her horse.

    I still ride like a coked up lemur, so I'm not going to judge.
    That last sentence there.... Is brilliant. I'm going to be thinking of that while I ride today, lol!! Coked up lemur.... Heh heh heh
    (A decidedly unhorsey) MrB knocks over a feed bucket at the tack shop and mutters, "Oh crap. I failed the stadium jumping phase."
    (he does listen!)



  14. #14
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    May. 24, 2011
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    New Jersey
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AliCat View Post
    You do realize that several of the riders you saw in that picture collection are juniors who currently compete in the Big Eq, right?

    I don't like that most riders seem to throw eq out the window in the hunter ring, but they are focused on "selling" the horse. How powerful the jump is, staying out of the way, etc.
    They may be trying to do that, but it really isn't helping the horse jump any better. Proper form would help the horse a lot more then throwing yourself up their neck



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct. 10, 2001
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    West Coast of Canada
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    Default

    What I find interesting is some of the riders have been taught a hunter style and an Eq style. For instance Lillie Keenan whom I love to watch - she has a distinctly different style riding the hunters - she is softer, and does actually duck to one side a bit (something she was obviously taught to do!) Yet when you see her in the Eq she is more "European" for lack of a better description - more upright between the jumps and perfectly centred over the horse when it jumps.

    I actually think style should be one and the same regardless of which discipline you are competing in (hunter, jumper, equitation) But for some reason the (in my opinion) strange phenomenon of showing hunters using exagerated positions cropped up somewhere along the way.

    But I'm just an observer these days. Haven't shown 3'6 for some time.



  16. #16
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    May. 24, 2011
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    New Jersey
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bjd2013 View Post
    I hate when people critique professionals equitation. They all do little things to get the best jump out of their horse. So what if their leg swings back and hits their butt! If they find all their distances and gets a terrific jump out of their horse, who gives a crap!? I would kill to ride like Scott Stewart, or Louise Serio, heels down or not.

    There are many people out there who consider themselves a professional when they should not be. There is no need to pick on a Grand Prix Rider or Scott Stewart but many of those wannabes are teaching their bad habits to their students and telling them that what they do is okay



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2001
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    265

    Default

    I always laugh at these threads, when people try to make their point by saying 'back in the day' hunter riders didn't throw themselves up the neck, blah blah blah.

    Really? Ever look at the hunter pics of Rodney from the '70's and '80's? The leg swinging back? The loop in the reins/crest release? Hanging off to one side of the neck?

    Think his horses weren't almost always jumping great?

    Enough said.



  18. #18
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    Jan. 23, 2000
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    Default

    This thread is complaining about riders in the Hunter Spectacular - aka, some of the very best in the country. By all means, if you can outride them, go for it.
    ---
    They're small hearts.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2008
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    Default

    JustMyStyle, here you go.

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...rio+equitation

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...#39;s+position

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...#39;s+position

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...#39;s+position

    And that's not even all of them. As you can see, it's been done to death. Hope you have president's day off. You've got a lot of reading to do.
    "Aye God, Woodrow..."



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec. 15, 2011
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    over the rainbow
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    Default

    I think this thread is actually pretty interesting. I was wondering the same thing. Could we please not turn this into a "ummm, why are you asking this?" Thread? If all you want to do is criticize the OP then just don't look at the thread.



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