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  1. #21
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    We also had the neighbor's dogs amusing themselves killing our chickens - but the unfortunate fact is that you can't get compensation unless you catch the dog in the act - so five piles of feathers out in the wooded area of their pasture was no proof that a fox didn't do it, and the other neighbor compensated us for the one chicken his dog brought home, but not for the piles of feathers on our boundary lines either. At $5 a chicken we lost a hundred dollars, we lost 20 home raised, no drugs, chicken dinners, we lost the egg sales, we lost the chicks they might have raised up if we hadn't eaten them ourselves - there's a lot to it.

    We trapped a couple of possums, a racoon, and they were still disappearing - DH finally sat out in the afternoons with the shotgun and a good clear zone - the neighbor dogs came down, saw him, and turned around. I sure don't want to shoot the dogs but I can't afford to perimeter fence my place with diamond V either to make sure they stay out.

    The barred rocks all got killed, and they all had names and came to their names so now in order not to be hurt I don't make pets out of them or name them, they are just out there, and that bothers me too, that your canine pet trumps my livestock "pet". But I don't want to create problems with the neighbors either so I don't threaten to shoot them, it's going to be SSS. Your dog? Coyotes, maybe?

    Modern American life - we have so much we can argue about pets and treat them like children, badly raised children at that.
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  2. #22
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    Dec. 7, 2006
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    My dad shot and killed a beloved, family dog who had come over and killed/maimed all of his twenty seven turkeys, then sued the beloved, family dog owners for the loss of his turkeys.

    Beloved, family dog owners then counter sued him for the cost of thier dog, ($800.00, which they had gotten for free).

    Judge laughed at thier claim, threw thier case out, and awarded my dad the full cost of his livestock loss.

    So yes I do think that a beloved, family pet that is harassing or killing somebodies livestock should be shot and killed.

    Really sucks for the dog, but people need to be responsible for thier animals.



  3. #23
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    I did not read this article nor the responses of the rather disoriented bleeding hearts who responded. We as a nation have become so distorted in our view of life that of course a dog would get more sympathy than a human who did a similar thing. Nuts. The laws in a civilized balanced city, county or state gives a dog one chance when it kills fowl. No more if it kills a larger animal such as a goat, lamb, etc. In line with the nature of the animal and the propensity of it to become more bloodthirsty as it kills again.

    In Loudoun County, Va, if a dog was found to have killed chickens that was the law, all it required was to have seen the dog, identify that it had killed (by the person who owned the livestock), animal control investigated and gave the owner of the dog one more chance. If it was found killing fowl again, it had to be put down. I had a goat killed and I discovered it at midnight, by one am they were out, went to the owner's home, knocked on the door, asked to see the dogs, saw that one had blood on the coat or mouth and both dogs were taken. I had seen them both come back to the scene of the crime. I was so sorry for the beautiful husky dogs, but it had to be done as the owner could not contain them. Animal control had adopted these two dogs out to this person who was a newby owner, the dogs were strays, these were husky dogs, notorious for predatory behavior with livestock and they adopted them out to someone in a rural area who had no dog experience.

    Many wrongs were made in that case but the basic thrust is, if the dog kills it will kill again. If it bites it will likely bite again. Thus is the nature of the dog. It could be trained but as one poster put it, they never again will trust their own dog which is as it should be. In these cases if you respect the lives of others, be they animal or human, you have to err on the side of caution. Reasoning skills seem to be extraordinarily damaged these days.
    "When written in Chinese, the word "crisis" is composed of two characters, one represents danger, the other represents opportunity."

    John F Kennedy



  4. #24
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    Jun. 21, 2004
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    Yep, it's such a shame that an otherwise really good dog isn't handled responsibly by her owners. So now the dog suffers. What you want to bet that the owners get another dog & history repeats itself? I missed the part of this being the dog's 2nd offense (that was caught).
    Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamber View Post

    In Loudoun County, Va, if a dog was found to have killed chickens that was the law, all it required was to have seen the dog, identify that it had killed (by the person who owned the livestock), animal control investigated and gave the owner of the dog one more chance. If it was found killing fowl again, it had to be put down.
    My experience with Loudoun County's handling of dogs killing livestock wasn't the same as yours. All it took was one livestock death - first offense - and that was it.

    Last year two dogs were spotted going after my sheep by my neighbors who chased the dogs away and called Animal Control, and then me. Both police and Animal Control came, and dogs were found at their home doorstep (the farm behind us where a person was renting a house on the property), blood still on the dogs. Dogs were immediately taken into custody by Animal Control, and owner contacted. She was not allowed to take the animals home; she was instead told she would be summoned to appear in court regarding the damages. She was further told she would had to pay restitution for the killed sheep, and for all vet bills concerning the other sheep that had been injured. She was informed owners of dogs that harm livestock only have two choices - surrender the dogs to be put to sleep, OR send dogs to live in another state that was not contiguous to any border of the state of Virginia. The dogs may never again be returned to the state of Virginia. If they were found back in the state, they would be impounded by Animal Control and put to sleep immediately.

    Animal Control fixed the court date, sent official notice to the neighbors who had seen the dogs, plus us and the dog's owner, to meet when the court case came due. Not only did I not have to do a thing, but it appears I had no choice in the matter. Animal Control took full control to see that justice was done on all levels.

    We all met on the day of the court case. Fortunately, the matter was settled out of court - as we sat outside the court room - dog owner had already paid me the replacement cost I advised her would be for a purebred Dorset ewe, and also a written an apology. I was fine with that. The owner found a cousin in Vermont who agreed to take the two dogs. Animal Control was happy with that, and advised the judge that the matter was settled to the satisfaction of both livestock owner (me) and their department.

    Here dogs that kill livestock have only one strike. That is it. There is no second strike.



  6. #26
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    I also missed that the dog had already attacked another dog before killing the livestock. I think they're right to put it down since clearly the owners are not able to control it.



  7. #27
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    Hey have you seen my dogs running around?

    No. No I have not seen your dogs running around.

    SSS


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    "beloved" dogs don't run around unsupervised off their owners property. One awol episode is an accident, two or more is someone who doesn't care about their dog or their neighbors.
    This is why if I'd need fencing to keep my dog in if I ever move to a rural property
    yes, this is why EVERYONE needs fencing to keep their dog in, no matter HOW rural your property is. The bizarre double-standard on this horse board drives me nuts- everyone leaps in shrieking about horrible it is these dogs are running loose, then we find out that well, yeah, all of our dogs are running loose too, but well, OUR dogs never cause problems! nonsense. Don't be a hypocrite- fence your dogs, and THEN you can go complain about other people's loose dogs.

    I think (could be very wrong) Texas is the only state that doesn't have a state-wide law against letting your dog run loose. In PA if you have no mechanism in place to keep your dog securely on your property you're in violation of the law. Doesn't matter if you have a postage-stamp yard or hundreds of acres, if your dog leaves your property while not under your direct supervision you have violated the law. A good fence is your best solution. Don't need to fence the entire property for the dog if the property is large.

    I think that shooting these dogs is a good solution- if everyone knows their "beloved" dog WILL BE shot, that gives them a strong incentive to put in that fence.



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    "beloved" dogs don't run around unsupervised off their owners property. One awol episode is an accident, two or more is someone who doesn't care about their dog or their neighbors.


    yes, this is why EVERYONE needs fencing to keep their dog in, no matter HOW rural your property is. The bizarre double-standard on this horse board drives me nuts- everyone leaps in shrieking about horrible it is these dogs are running loose, then we find out that well, yeah, all of our dogs are running loose too, but well, OUR dogs never cause problems! nonsense. Don't be a hypocrite- fence your dogs, and THEN you can go complain about other people's loose dogs.

    I think (could be very wrong) Texas is the only state that doesn't have a state-wide law against letting your dog run loose. In PA if you have no mechanism in place to keep your dog securely on your property you're in violation of the law. Doesn't matter if you have a postage-stamp yard or hundreds of acres, if your dog leaves your property while not under your direct supervision you have violated the law. A good fence is your best solution. Don't need to fence the entire property for the dog if the property is large.

    I think that shooting these dogs is a good solution- if everyone knows their "beloved" dog WILL BE shot, that gives them a strong incentive to put in that fence.
    I tend to agree with this.

    We bought property in an area with far too many loose dogs. I haven't figured out how I want to handle trail riding after the problems with attacks of neighbor horses... I don't want a gun around because my mom is starting to... ahem... have age-related issues and I don't trust her judgment. Our horses were immediately fenced with no-climb to keep dogs out, and our backyard is chain link to keep our dogs in - but we ended up fencing the entire property pretty quickly to keep other people's dogs (and cattle) out.

    I just hope any dog/livestock problems from now on remain with the cattle whose owner fails to follow laws regarding his responsibility for keeping them in.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gothedistance View Post
    My experience with Loudoun County's handling of dogs killing livestock wasn't the same as yours. All it took was one livestock death - first offense - and that was it.

    Last year two dogs were spotted going after my sheep by my neighbors who chased the dogs away and called Animal Control, and then me. Both police and Animal Control came, and dogs were found at their home doorstep (the farm behind us where a person was renting a house on the property), blood still on the dogs. Dogs were immediately taken into custody by Animal Control, and owner contacted. She was not allowed to take the animals home; she was instead told she would be summoned to appear in court regarding the damages. She was further told she would had to pay restitution for the killed sheep, and for all vet bills concerning the other sheep that had been injured. She was informed owners of dogs that harm livestock only have two choices - surrender the dogs to be put to sleep, OR send dogs to live in another state that was not contiguous to any border of the state of Virginia. The dogs may never again be returned to the state of Virginia. If they were found back in the state, they would be impounded by Animal Control and put to sleep immediately.

    Animal Control fixed the court date, sent official notice to the neighbors who had seen the dogs, plus us and the dog's owner, to meet when the court case came due. Not only did I not have to do a thing, but it appears I had no choice in the matter. Animal Control took full control to see that justice was done on all levels.

    We all met on the day of the court case. Fortunately, the matter was settled out of court - as we sat outside the court room - dog owner had already paid me the replacement cost I advised her would be for a purebred Dorset ewe, and also a written an apology. I was fine with that. The owner found a cousin in Vermont who agreed to take the two dogs. Animal Control was happy with that, and advised the judge that the matter was settled to the satisfaction of both livestock owner (me) and their department.

    Here dogs that kill livestock have only one strike. That is it. There is no second strike.
    As I said, this was not a larger animal first, it was chickens and the animal control officer explained it very clearly after I lost a number of chickens and one a hen on a nest with chicks, another neighbor lost 25 chickens. The owner of the dog paid restitution but there was not a euthanasia order given on this first offense with birds. This was a number of years ago, they did not order the dogs euthanized immediately on birds, they did not then, that was the policy then. I lived in Loudoun Conty from 1989 to 2007 and this occured probably in the late 90s. Perhaps they have changed the policy but that was the policy.
    "When written in Chinese, the word "crisis" is composed of two characters, one represents danger, the other represents opportunity."

    John F Kennedy



  11. #31
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    Aug. 25, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    "beloved" dogs don't run around unsupervised off their owners property. One awol episode is an accident, two or more is someone who doesn't care about their dog or their neighbors.


    yes, this is why EVERYONE needs fencing to keep their dog in, no matter HOW rural your property is. The bizarre double-standard on this horse board drives me nuts- everyone leaps in shrieking about horrible it is these dogs are running loose, then we find out that well, yeah, all of our dogs are running loose too, but well, OUR dogs never cause problems! nonsense. Don't be a hypocrite- fence your dogs, and THEN you can go complain about other people's loose dogs.

    I think (could be very wrong) Texas is the only state that doesn't have a state-wide law against letting your dog run loose. In PA if you have no mechanism in place to keep your dog securely on your property you're in violation of the law. Doesn't matter if you have a postage-stamp yard or hundreds of acres, if your dog leaves your property while not under your direct supervision you have violated the law. A good fence is your best solution. Don't need to fence the entire property for the dog if the property is large.

    I think that shooting these dogs is a good solution- if everyone knows their "beloved" dog WILL BE shot, that gives them a strong incentive to put in that fence.
    A good fence does two jobs:

    It keeps something in.

    It keeps everything else out.

    That's why I don't like the "electronic" fences; they don't do that second job.

    In TN (as in many states) there is no "leash law" but there is a law that says you must have your dog under control. It specifically permits off leash work (coursing, fox hunting, etc.) but also specifically says that if a dog causes damage while loose it's the owner's responsibility.

    I can legally dispatch a dog actively harrassing my livestock. If I unlawfully kill a dog it's a form of vandalism and I'm liable for the value of the dog.

    If you live rurally in any part of the country this is a big issue.

    There's an old saying that "it's better to tried by 12 than carried by six." This applies in the case of dogs harassing livestock. I'll take care of the dog first and then explain to the authorities why I did it. I'm confident of the ultimate outcome.

    G.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamber View Post
    As I said, this was not a larger animal first, it was chickens and the animal control officer explained it very clearly after I lost a number of chickens and one a hen on a nest with chicks, another neighbor lost 25 chickens. The owner of the dog paid restitution but there was not a euthanasia order given on this first offense with birds. This was a number of years ago, they did not order the dogs euthanized immediately on birds, they did not then, that was the policy then. I lived in Loudoun Conty from 1989 to 2007 and this occured probably in the late 90s. Perhaps they have changed the policy but that was the policy.
    Things changed after an elderly woman nearby was killed by pitt bulls. It's called the Sullivan law.

    However the law does destingous chickens from parrots
    Last edited by carolprudm; Feb. 17, 2012 at 09:26 AM. Reason: clarity
    I wasn't always a Smurf
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    Things changed after an elderly woman nearby was killed by pitt bulls. It's called the Sullivan law
    Thank you, that is so sad. The dog policy out here I will not even attempt to describe, it is so sordid. No money for animal control and no real control.
    "When written in Chinese, the word "crisis" is composed of two characters, one represents danger, the other represents opportunity."

    John F Kennedy



  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=wendy;6147026]"beloved" dogs don't run around unsupervised off their owners property. One awol episode is an accident, two or more is someone who doesn't care about their dog or their neighbors.
    QUOTE]

    Not true. If you read my post we spent > $10k on fencing, had a supposedly "dog proof" gate etc. We had 4 big dogs and he was the ONLY one that would get out. Some dogs are total escape artists. Our only alternative would have been to keep our dog literally tied up. I can't tell you how many countless hours we spent walking our fenceline (non-climb horse mesh fencing with a bar across the top) trying to find if there were ANY holes anywhere underneath that he was getting out through. We couldn't believe our eyes when we saw him one day literally climb a 4.5' mesh gate, squeeze himself out between the top 2 bars and go trotting off down the road. If we hadn't cared about our dogs or neighbors we sure as heck wouldn't have wasted $10k on the fencing, we certainly didn't need it for the horses.

    Of course too many people don't have fences. ALL dogs should be kept fenced. Drives me nuts when I walk down the road and someone's dog comes running out at me. However, not all dogs that get out are neglected or not loved. Some, like our one, was just too smart for his own good.



  15. #35
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    nevermind, too tired to be posting
    Last edited by CosMonster; Feb. 17, 2012 at 12:56 AM. Reason: after repeated edits to try and get my thoughts in order, I give up



  16. #36
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    Jul. 24, 2006
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    The dogs owners are my cousin and her husband (and their 4 kids).

    The situation really sucks all around. They feel terrible about the dog getting loose and the real issue is more about how the sheriff's office dealt with putting the animal down (the fact that it was a first offense and the dog was put down less than 24 hours after being picked up, and they were lied to about the timeline and about the fact that the dog had already been put down).

    I can vouch for the fact that they are better pet owners than the comments and article might imply. The fact of the matter is that the dog got loose and killed some chickens. They were totally willing to pay whatever restitution the chicken owners could have wanted and then to do whatever it took to keep Angel on their property. My heart goes out to them, and even more so to the kids who absolutely adored the dog.
    __________________________________
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  17. #37
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    But PNW, why didn't they do that first - make sure the dog was penned up properly?

    There's a whole lot more I could say but I doubt you'd be able to process it as close as you are. Get your own place, get some chickens or small stock and see how you feel about loose family pets after that.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReSomething View Post
    But PNW, why didn't they do that first - make sure the dog was penned up properly?

    There's a whole lot more I could say but I doubt you'd be able to process it as close as you are. Get your own place, get some chickens or small stock and see how you feel about loose family pets after that.
    And what aout the reported attack on the dachshund?
    I wasn't always a Smurf
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  19. #39
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    I'm with wendy-if the owners let it run, it's not that "beloved".

    Kate, I understand about having an escape artist. One of my six dogs, a foxhound cross, won't stay home, and she climbs a fence like a monkey. My only choice is to keep her confined and walk her on a leash several times a day. Both my husband and I work, so it's not always easy to do, but it gets done.

    Yep-we live on 140 acres, surrounded by other large properties, and I walk my dog on a leash.

    She's not playing in the traffic, turning over trash cans, chasing livestock, or otherwise finding trouble for everybody involved.

    Is she happy? I don't know-let me wake her up and ask her!



  20. #40
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    Wendy,

    I agree with you, 150%.



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