The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 59
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2010
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    7,281

    Default Dogs killing livestock

    We've had situations with dogs threatening livestock where we also knew horses were at risk that have been discussed on this board.

    What if a dog gets into someone's property and kills livestock, but it's a beloved family animal? To me, it's the family who allows that dog out to follow its instinct to blame for the dog's fate, not the poor dog's blame... but you can't allow dogs to just go out and kill livestock. It starts with chickens, but I was one of many who have experience with neighborhood dogs starting small and working their way up to attacking horses.


    At the same time, I love my dogs and something happening to them would crush me.

    What do you think?


    The article spawning this discussion, posted by someone who fought to try to save the dog in question:
    http://www.myfoxaustin.com//dpp/top_...#axzz1mTALx06d
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    10,718

    Default

    When a 'beloved family animal' is allowed to run, allowed to kill livestock, or in other cases attack and maim humans then the dog needs to be put down. And the owner will be legally liable for their neglect, and that's right also. People who love their animals keep them safe, and don't let an animal attack other people or other animals.

    And I read the article. The law is being followed, and it's too bad the dog will suffer, but it's the owner's fault. How many threads on here talk about domestic animals preying on livestock or wildlife, but the owner refuses to believe their dog did it? The chicken farmer has photographic proof of the identity of the animals and what they did, and I really doubt that the farmer has had this camera on the coop forever. Usually people only put up game cameras when there have been previous attacks. I doubt it's the first flock the two dogs have decimated, and who knows what other livestock. When you adopt an animal you assume the responsibilities that come with it, and this owner didn't.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2010
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    7,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    When a 'beloved family animal' is allowed to run, allowed to kill livestock, or in other cases attack and maim humans then the dog needs to be put down. And the owner will be legally liable for their neglect, and that's right also. People who love their animals keep them safe, and don't let an animal attack other people or other animals.
    I tend to agree with that.

    I feel for the kids in this situation, but blame the people and think it's a shame for the dog, but necessary. If the neighbors' chickens got in with the dog, it would be different - but the owners failed to competently contain their dog.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2006
    Location
    The rocky part of KY
    Posts
    10,232

    Default

    I didn't read the article. It's pretty cut and dried for me, when I was in High school I had a pretty cool Heeler mix and like every body else back then he was not neutered and allowed to roam, he was also very protective. He bit one man who came to the house, and my parents paid for the medical care, he bit a child who came up to the house through the back way and those parents figured the kid caused it somehow, but when he bit the third person (not too long after he HAD been neutered) a child who was cutting up our driveway to a path off our property, I couldn't make any excuses for him. He was a biter and that was that, and we had him PTS after the rabies quarantine was over.
    Sonoma County CA was a sheep raising county and they had very clear laws on the books, and most of the farmers were given signs to post in their fields, regarding the leash law and the rights of farmers to protect their livestock and recover losses.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 14, 2007
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    1,250

    Default

    When on the owner's property, it's a beloved pet. If it's on my property, it's a potential predator. If it's killing my livestock, it IS a predator.

    There was a woman that made a decent living selling hatching eggs from heritage chickens. A neighbor's "beloved pet" wiped out her heritage hens and put her out of business. The neighbor didn't have HO insurance and didn't have enough money to make it worth suing.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2004
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    4,037

    Default

    Did anyone read the comments left at the end of the article? All 120 of them? After reading completely uninformed statements like those...it's one of those times that make me fear for the future of this country and our species in general. Morons.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



  7. #7
    Join Date
    May. 19, 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    535

    Default

    RedMare, I read afew and shook my head..

    While I understand the family's plight..Id want to know HOW their pup got out to be able to kill the chickens. My dogs are not outside un-supervised...



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2008
    Location
    Middle USA
    Posts
    2,692

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by netg View Post
    We've had situations with dogs threatening livestock where we also knew horses were at risk that have been discussed on this board.

    What if a dog gets into someone's property and kills livestock, but it's a beloved family animal? To me, it's the family who allows that dog out to follow its instinct to blame for the dog's fate, not the poor dog's blame... but you can't allow dogs to just go out and kill livestock. It starts with chickens, but I was one of many who have experience with neighborhood dogs starting small and working their way up to attacking horses.


    At the same time, I love my dogs and something happening to them would crush me.

    What do you think?


    The article spawning this discussion, posted by someone who fought to try to save the dog in question:
    http://www.myfoxaustin.com//dpp/top_...#axzz1mTALx06d


    The fact that the dog in question, along with another dog killed someone else's stock makes me think the behavior will escalate and move on to attacking other animals. If the dog was on their property and the chickens were their property then I would try to rehabilitate the dog first. It is sad to destroy a beautiful dog like that, but once they get a taste of blood and killing it is next to impossible.

    As a kid we had a black lab who kept killing our chickens. We took a chicken the dog killed and tied it around ( under) her neck. As the chicken started to get yucky the dog looked more and more miserable and of course we wanted nothing to do with the dog at that time either!! When the chicken finally rotted and fell off the dog, she wanted nothing more to do with chickens, alive or dead.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2007
    Posts
    3,928

    Default

    If one of my dogs was shot for harassing someone's livestock, I'd be devastated. Absolutely devastated. But I wouldn't be angry at the person who shot him. I'd be incredibly apologetic actually. I'd miss my dog but dogs who attack livestock are a hazard. I'd be just as devastated if someone's dog killed one of my goats or horses too, since as we all know just because the animal is livestock doesn't mean it isn't a beloved pet as well.

    I own a dog who has attacked my goats. I keep a sharp eye on him and have worked extensively to train him to leave livestock alone. I also never ever let him out in my yard unsupervised because he can and will jump just about any fence. If I could not keep him contained and under control all the time I would send him to an urban home or have him PTS (preferably the first one, of course, but if I could not find such a home for him I'd do the latter). It would be a shame because he really is a fantastic dog and doesn't have an ounce of human aggression--when he was attacking my goats I literally gagged him with my arm because he wouldn't bite me and it was the only way I could get him to quit grabbing at them (the poor goats kept trying to come to me for protection, but I was wrestling with the 80 pound GSD who had slipped his collar). I know he would never bite a person and he's good with dogs and cats but that doesn't matter much if I let him run loose to attack someone else's goats.

    I also recently shot a dog that had killed my neighbor's goats and chickens and was stalking mine. He was obviously a pet who had been very well cared for. I have no sympathy for the owners. He was killing livestock throughout our village for almost two weeks total. It needed to be done, especially because here there is no law like in the article and no animal control.

    I don't blame the dogs for doing it. They're just acting like dogs. I absolutely blame the owners for not training and/or containing their dogs. But unfortunately, like many things in life the dogs often have to suffer for their owners' irresponsibility. It's unfair, but so is asking livestock owners to tolerate their animals being killed, or for that matter for those animals to be killed at all.

    I'm not sure how I feel about the story in question, though. It's a little different from the dog being killed while actively attacking or attempting to get to livestock. It would depend a little on the circumstances of her roaming to me. If they routinely let her loose, then I could see it. If it was a freak escape (when my dog attacked my goats it was because I'd locked him in my bedroom but he jumped up and popped my glass window out, something that I never would have foreseen, for example) then I could see maybe giving the owners another chance to control their dog. If she has a history of attacking livestock, no. But I guess I think it should be handled more like human bites--when you get bit in most areas, they don't require the dog to be put down. If it keeps biting people though, then it does. This is especially true since the article says the owners are willing to pay for the chickens.

    I try to put myself in the chicken owner's shoes, except with my goats (though I have also had a chicken killed by a dog) and I don't think I'd want the dog put down. But I also have pretty different (and much softer) views on the subject than many other people--and I don't know all the details of this story, so it is entirely possible that this dog does have a history of attacking stock in which case I'd be fine with the way the situation is being handled. Bottom line though, I don't think it's any great crime to humanely euthanize a dog for attacking livestock. If I were the chicken owner and had the choice of calling the cops or simply accepting the compensation from the owners and making sure they knew that if it happened again their dog would be dead, I'd probably do the latter (assuming this is a one-time freak thing). But I don't necessarily think it is a bad thing to put the dog down either, if that makes any sense at all.
    Last edited by CosMonster; Feb. 15, 2012 at 03:56 PM. Reason: additional thoughts



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2010
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    7,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CosMonster View Post
    I also recently shot a dog that had killed my neighbor's goats and chickens and was stalking mine. He was obviously a pet who had been very well cared for. I have no sympathy for the owners. He was killing livestock throughout our village for almost two weeks total. It needed to be done.

    I don't blame the dogs for doing it. They're just acting like dogs. I absolutely blame the owners for not training and/or containing their dogs. But unfortunately, like many things in life the dogs often have to suffer for their owners' irresponsibility. It's unfair, but so is asking livestock owners to tolerate their animals being killed, or for that matter for those animals to be killed at all.
    I was actually thinking of your situation when I read about this one. There was zero question you did the right thing, as far as I am concerned. I just started to wonder - in this case, owners are present - did dog escape vs dog was normally let out? If so, should relocation of some sort be allowed?

    I tend to have the belief that generally once they've tasted blood you're going to have a problem, but also that sometimes they can be retrained - as long as it's not someone else's livestock at risk.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2007
    Posts
    3,928

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by netg View Post
    I was actually thinking of your situation when I read about this one. There was zero question you did the right thing, as far as I am concerned. I just started to wonder - in this case, owners are present - did dog escape vs dog was normally let out? If so, should relocation of some sort be allowed?

    I tend to have the belief that generally once they've tasted blood you're going to have a problem, but also that sometimes they can be retrained - as long as it's not someone else's livestock at risk.
    My response was definitely colored by my experiences. I'm not sure what edits you saw, because what you quoted definitely left some out...I didn't read the article initially because it took forever to load, and then I tried to tailor my response a little to the situation described there, which is very different from mine. The dog I shot was on my property (though not attacking livestock just then) and did have an established history of attacking stock--at that point I'd talked to two other people who had animals injured/killed by that dog, as well as the friends I was farmsitting for whose goats he killed. I know you know that, but just in case anyone missed that thread...

    I do believe some dogs can be retrained--my Hector is one. He went from attacking goats on sight to being able to be off-leash (though closely supervised) with them. It has only been a few months and I do think that eventually he will be even more trustworthy, though I'll never leave him totally alone with them. But his attacks also started as play and just escalated as the goats continued to resist. He clearly wasn't trying to kill them right from the start. I don't think all dogs can be retrained.

    For me this question does kind of hinge on the owners' management practices. If it was a once-in-a-lifetime type escape, then I'd want them to have another chance. If they routinely let their dog wander and cause problems, I think the dog should be seized and/or euthanized after a situation like this. But that's a big gray area as far as legislation goes.

    Sorry for the super-long posts, it's been a subject on my mind a lot recently and my thoughts on it are rather complicated.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    10,718

    Default

    I have watched tv shows (Animal Cops SF) where a dog that had a multiple bite history was rehomed to San Diego with a relative of the owner. The original owner ignored the rules that the vicious dog ruling required, and another bite happened. The dog was rehomed, and I always wondered about the legal, and moral liability if the dog attacked again. I think a history of biting and attacking animals or humans would be a red flag to rehoming, because the liability involved would be huge. And if I rehomed an animal and something happened to another person or animals then I would consider it my fault. No one can guarantee that an animal with bad behavior in the past won't bite or attack again.

    The bottom line for me is that people who don't confine and supervise their animals are the villains here, and the animals suffer the consequences. In the original case in the article the owner of the dog is the person responsible for her children's trauma, and for the dog's death. If the owner had behaved responsibly (and I think the sentences about the dog meeting the kids at the bus sound like it was regularly allowed to roam) then this wouldn't have happened, and it's not anyone's fault but hers.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2003
    Posts
    1,920

    Default

    For a couple of years now a friend of mine has lost tens of thousands (possibly hundreds by now) of dollars in Miniature horses due to dog attacks, plus thousands more in vet bills, LGDs, llamas, donkeys, fencing... There has been a lot of mobilization down in Austin to draw attention to dogs like this, the law and the responsibility of the owners (if there are any)

    I have no sympathy for the owners: keep your dog contained.
    "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2003
    Posts
    3,589

    Default

    That's a really tough one for me. On 1st reading, my thought was, the dog should have been contained, it's the family's fault, but..... thinking back.... I had a wonderful, wonderful dog for 8 years. I had found him on the side of the road as a tiny pup and he was one of these best-dog-ever dogs. When I had my baby who came home at 4 months only weighing 5lbs, he was great. As she got bigger, she totally abused him - playing hide-and-seek by putting a towel over his head and then HER hiding etc. He was great. However, he was an escape artist. We spent $10k completely fencing our acreage with no-climb horse mesh fencing. We kept our driveway gates closed all the time but still that dog could get out sometimes. It was random, wouldn't happen for weeks, and then he would get out and generally go visit with a dog down the road. We actually caught him climbing the driveway gate - so put more and more bars on top of it.

    One day he proudly came trotting down the road carrying one of the neighbor's chickens. Was it our fault he got out - absolutely - because somehow, despite the money and the effort, he had managed to get out. Had he ever killed anything before - absolutely not. I know this because we live on a rural road where EVERYONE knew our dog, so had he killed anything, or had ANY dog killed anything, we would have known about it. Did he ever kill anything again - no.

    I was reading this story and trying to decide how I would have felt if the neighbors had insisted he was PTS for that one, albeit serious, transgression. I would have struggled. I did compensate them for their chicken and was hugely apologetic. I would have fought very hard for him not to be put down.

    If this was a 1st offence for the family, and they compensated the owner for the loss of the chickens, I think they should have been given a second chance.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2003
    Posts
    3,589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    I think the sentences about the dog meeting the kids at the bus sound like it was regularly allowed to roam) then this wouldn't have happened, and it's not anyone's fault but hers.
    Just to clarify - it doesn't say that the dog meets the kids at the bus, it says "
    Angel usually waits for the girls to get home from school." - which could well be inside their house at the window or door.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun. 21, 2004
    Location
    Cairo, Georgia
    Posts
    2,468

    Default

    I think that in this particular case the dog should be returned to her owners but they must keep the dog fenced in at all times.
    I'd be in jail if this were my dog as I'd get her if I had to break in to do it. I just feel that strongly about my dogs. They're like my babies, truly. I think I'd have a breakdown if something like this happened to one of mine.
    I think the people who own the chickens should get paid for all their damages including any distress if the chicks were their pets & then ask the city to let the dogs go. At least give the dog's owners a chance to change their ways & control what is otherwise a very wonderful dog.
    Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!
    www.whitfieldfarm.shutterfly.com



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep. 16, 2006
    Posts
    615

    Default

    This is why if I'd need fencing to keep my dog in if I ever move to a rural property. He is not mean or aggressive whatsoever. In fact, he's a registered therapy dog and visits psych wards and children hospitals. He is, however, a hunter. Call it high prey drive, whatever. He finds stuff and kills them. He's caught too many squirrels to count. Pigeons. Caught a seagull out of mid-air. Caught a magpie when it was taunting him while he was eating his breakfast. Ate some pheasant babies when we were out hiking. Caught a partridge on another hike.

    If he was ever loose, I have no doubt he'd find his way into a chicken coop and wreak havoc. He's even learned how to 'crack' raw eggs for himself so it wouldn't just be the hens, either.

    I would be devastated if someone shot him for killing chickens. Luckily for HIS sake (and mine) I'm smart enough to realize what he's capable of and what he WILL do - it's his nature.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2005
    Location
    Spotsylvania, VA
    Posts
    14,814

    Default

    Sounds like it wasn't the dog's first offense
    [LEFT]Mr Pate revealed to the Animal Control Officer that he was relieved that the animal would be taken because of a previous case in which the yellow mix had attacked their pet dachshund.



    http://www.myfoxaustin.com/dpp/top_s...#axzz1mYBktX9r[/LEFT]
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    10,718

    Default

    Kate-You're right, and I did look again. Unfortunately, this family sounds like the ones we read about on here time and again. Their dog is loose, something happens, and then they claim little Fluffy didn't do it. As I said before, I don't think the chicken farmer put up a video camera that caught both dogs in the act unless there were previous attacks. The state law is that a livestock killer is put down, and that's what happened. I bet the dog owner will go right out and get another dog, and I bet that one roams also. If the dog doesn't roam, then how did the dog end up in the chicken pen? I hope the chicken owner has been compensated appropriately, but no monetary value can make up for the time, effort and care that they put into their animals.

    Thank you Caroprudm, and it is not the first offense. It really sounds like the family did nothing about controling the dog, or keeping it in. I wonder what happened to the dachshund? They don't mention having another dog, so that makes me suspicious.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2005
    Location
    Spotsylvania, VA
    Posts
    14,814

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitfield Farm Hanoverians View Post
    I think that in this particular case the dog should be returned to her owners but they must keep the dog fenced in at all times.
    I'd be in jail if this were my dog as I'd get her if I had to break in to do it. I just feel that strongly about my dogs. They're like my babies, truly. I think I'd have a breakdown if something like this happened to one of mine.
    I think the people who own the chickens should get paid for all their damages including any distress if the chicks were their pets & then ask the city to let the dogs go. At least give the dog's owners a chance to change their ways & control what is otherwise a very wonderful dog.
    And what if it happened again. It was noted that the dog had attacked another dog besides the chickens.

    FWIW I found one of my dachshunds dead on my property....no idea of what happened. Not long after I SAW my neighbor's dog run into my yard and snap another dog's neck. Dead in a few seconds. I reported it to the animal warden and of course the owner denied everything so he was allowed to keep the dog as long as it was confined.

    Not long after that I was awakened by a commotion. The dog was out and had chased a weanling filly over her fence into a neighor's property. I ran screaming like a banshee and the owner was just standing at his front door waiting for the dog to come back. This time since several people saw the dog he was removed from the property. Yes the filly was injured.

    Another time I caught a golden retriever ...beautiful, well groomed dog...with one of my geese in its mouth. I called the owner who said "Not MY dog, he would NEVER do something like that." When she came to reclaim the dog I handed her the dead goose and said if I EVER caught that dog again it was going to the pound.

    BTW the dog lived over a mile away and was soon back again. And indeed I did call AC.
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



Similar Threads

  1. cops killing dogs.
    By Whitfield Farm Hanoverians in forum The Menagerie
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: Jun. 23, 2012, 09:17 AM
  2. Dangerous Lepto killing dogs in Michigan
    By LauraKY in forum The Menagerie
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Oct. 28, 2011, 09:59 AM
  3. Replies: 19
    Last Post: Jun. 18, 2011, 03:53 PM
  4. Livestock Guardian Dogs- tell me more?
    By kookicat in forum Around The Farm
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: Apr. 9, 2010, 01:05 PM
  5. Forget Livestock Guardian Dogs--
    By GoForAGallop in forum Around The Farm
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: Oct. 19, 2009, 09:35 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness