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  1. #1

    Angry PSSM in Quarter horses!!!! BEWARE!

    Dear all!!

    the AQHA has just released a new panel test for all genetic diseases found in QH: http://www.aqha.com/News/News-Articl...c-Testing.aspx

    About PSSM: http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/home.html

    I have sadly just put down a filly last week purchased at the legacy sale in 2010 with PSSM. Her name was Revolution Dunit. I am extremely upset and needless to say hurt as my filly was in pain because the breeders (perhaps out of no fault of their own) breed 2 horses which gave a horse who was a carrier of PSSM. We have right now, the tools to make sure we do not RISK even passing these genes on... And why even play russia roulette???

    That I got the bad end of the stick because people want to make money... I cried for nights on end... I held my horse as she was put down... Why why why? Because humans want those famous horses the expense of the health of the horse. I cannot wrap my head around it at this point. Anyways... i hope everyone can do their part and not breed horses with issues!!!

    MESSAGE IS: get your horses tested before you breed and buy!!! for 86 bucks, is it worth the risk????

    Stephanie
    www.rusticfurnitureoutlet.ca



  2. #2
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    Nov. 4, 2003
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    Dallas, Georgia
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    With all due respect and sympathy for your horse: why was she put down? Was it so bad that it couldn't be controlled with the proper high-fat, low starch, sugar-free diet?

    I have an PSSM/EPSM Percheron who's the poster child for the disease and it's well controlled by diet & high-dose Vitamin E.

    I do agree, tho, that to keep breeding horses with issues (HYPP, EPSM, etc.) is irresponsible.... hence why, despite stallion offers, I will never breed my Percheron. Why would I want to pass that on to another generation?
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- "When they try to tell you these are your Golden years, don't believe 'em.... It's rust."



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2012
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    2

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    She was put down as the symptoms could not be managed despite the high fat/ good hay diet and being outside..... She had chronic diarrhoea and the idea of her being in that state for 4 months and in pain did not sit well with me. I read a lot of research and muscle damage is demonstrated at the age of 2 months...

    she was a almost 3 year old little filly... breaks my heart

    the worst is that because she was bought at a legacy sale which prides itself on selling quality QH for reining.. i have learnt that its BS... We forget that the heart is a muscle... their are muscles around the intestines... etc etc etc



  4. #4
    Join Date
    May. 17, 2003
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    5,591

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    I am very sorry for the loss of your filly. That sucks. Truly.

    I think PSSM/EPSM has been a very poorly understood disease, particularly in regard to how widespread it is amongst all sorts of breeds.

    Until very recently, it's only been considered a disease of draft and heavy horses. And equally, many vets didn't really believe in it at all--just thought it was a fad disease du jour.

    I suspect that 4 years ago, when your filly was conceived, no-one had much idea of it being an issue in the QH population, so I'd cut the breeders a bit of slack from that perspective. It tends to be a disease of big, well muscled strains of horse, which is probably what they were breeding for.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 2005
    Location
    Strasburg, PA "Just west of Paradise"
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    From link in original post: http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/home.html

    Polysaccharide storage myopathy also occurs in many other breeds including Drafts, Draft crossbreeds, and warmbloods. Many of the clinical signs in these breeds differ from those found in Quarter Horses and related breeds. The signs found in Draft, Draft crossbreeds, and warmbloods include muscle soreness, reluctance to engage the hind quarters muscle atrophy, and weakness.
    There are two different types of PSSM found in horses, Type 1 and Type 2. Type 1 is found in over 20 breeds and commonly affects Quarter Horses, Quarter Horse-related breeds, Morgans, some Draft breeds and some warmbloods. Type 2 PSSM is found in Quarter Horses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds and potentially other light breeds. The Draft breeds affected by Type 1 PSSM are Belgians, Percherons and many Continental European Draft breeds. A high percentage of Continental European Draft breeds (62%) were found to carry the mutation responsible for Type 1 PSSM. The mutation that causes Type 1 PSSM is found in very low prevalence in Shires and Clydesdales, which are of British and Scottish origin, possibly indicating a greater genetic difference between these breeds and mainland European breeds (and their descendants). However, Type 1 PSSM is not neatly geographically distributed in the United States or Europe.

    Not exclusive to QHs. So maybe the following should apply to ALL horses.

    MESSAGE IS: get your horses tested before you breed and buy!!! for 86 bucks, is it worth the risk????



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2009
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
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    My QH was very likely suffering from EPSM, though in a mild form. My TBxQH probably has it too though I never bothered with the test as the only treatment was diet and management and it's worked for him. His is a more severe form than my QH had, but is still something we can manage. At any rate I discovered the probability over seven years ago and at that time Quarter horses were known to be one of the breeds with higher instances of EPSM/PSSM.

    EPSM/PSSM isn't an absolute disorder, and it's not something that gets worse or better in an individual horse. It's a glycogen storage issue - the body normally stores glycogen in larger molecules with many branches that can be quickly broken down by muscles for fuel. With EPSM/PSSM the larger glycogen storage molecules have fewer branches making it harder for the muscles to break those molecules down into fuel. Horses with EPSM/PSSM actually have muscles that use glycogen more efficiently than "normal" horses, but they just can't break the molecules down fast enough to keep up with the incoming molecules. Taken to the extreme end of the spectrum, the glycogen storage molecules can take the form of a single long chain, making it impossible for the muscles to break it down fast enough to get the energy needed to survive. Foals born with this extreme die within days as their body starves to death.

    I suspect there are a lot more horses out there with a mild form of EPSM/PSSM than is commonly thought, but those horses can manage to muddle through under "normal" horse management practices, and endure the resulting low levels of pain/discomfort. At any rate, the vast majority of EPSM/PSSM afflicted horses have it to a degree that is quite manageable and it's not an immediate death sentence. I do see how someone who lost their young horse to a severe form of it would refuse to have another horse with the condition. At least there is a test for it now. And more feed companies are recognizing the needs of EPSM/PSSM and metabolic issues in making new feeds for those horses.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun. 21, 2004
    Location
    Cairo, Georgia
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    2,429

    Default

    I thought that you had to have your QH tested before registering it with the AQHA if it came from stock known to have this gene. Of course I don't know, just what I've heard. Do you even have to do DNA testing on a QH before registering with the AQHA?
    Man I'd be really pissed if that was my horse, especially if she came from known carriers of the gene. I'd make a lot of waves about that being that she probably wasn't cheap & that fact that she had to suffer & you loved her.
    The AQHA is definately all about the almighty $$$!
    Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!
    www.whitfieldfarm.shutterfly.com



  8. #8
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    Mar. 4, 2004
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    Louisville, KY
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    I believe it's HYPP that must be tested for, not PSSM.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



  9. #9
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    Mar. 1, 2005
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    maryland
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusticfurnitureoutlet View Post
    That I got the bad end of the stick because people want to make money...

    MESSAGE IS: get your horses tested before you breed and buy!!! for 86 bucks, is it worth the risk????
    Amazes me that Aqha knows how to easily test for genetic diseases, and armed with that knowledge could breed out some really nasty things such as HYPP -- yet they choose not to. And they happily issue registrations to horses with serious genetic diseases. I don't understand their logic.



  10. #10
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    Dec. 7, 2001
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    Cullowhere?, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusticfurnitureoutlet View Post
    We forget that the heart is a muscle... their are muscles around the intestines... etc etc etc
    It was my understanding that the type of muscle in most internal organs is not affected by EPSM/PSSM. It's only skeletal muscles that are of the type affected. Though there's no telling what may happen in an extreme case, I suppose.
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

    Spay and neuter. Please.



  11. #11

    Default

    well PSSM is a draft disease,generally, and like it or not you can't poke around a Hancock horses backyard w/o finding some draft horse in the woodpile...

    I just looked up the OP's mare and sure enough there sits Hancock top and bottom in Driftwood Ike and Two Eyed Jack
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/inde...mall_font=1&l=


    Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    40,698

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Amazes me that Aqha knows how to easily test for genetic diseases, and armed with that knowledge could breed out some really nasty things such as HYPP -- yet they choose not to. And they happily issue registrations to horses with serious genetic diseases. I don't understand their logic.
    It is up to each breeder to decide what to breed for, other than right now HYPP.

    The AQHA, as a registry, has to abide by certain laws and one is that if you have two duly registered parents, as the owner of any offspring, you have a legal right to get that offspring registered by that registry.

    That is a precedent that was established after a lawsuit brought by a quarter horse breeder, Malvin Hatley, when he could not register some horse from registered parents because association rules said a horse with white past certain arbitrary lines could not be registered.

    After that lawsuit, that the AQHA lost, they now know that to make rules and/or change them, they have to follow a lengthy process, as determined by their attorneys.

    No one can just say that, now that we have a test for this disease, we won't register any more horses if they are not tested and negative.
    Like with HYPP, they had to bring that to the convention to be voted on and follow several years of partial rules before finally being able to demand that no Impressive bred horse from one or both parents not N/N, after being tested and N/N be registered.

    To now decide if to test and when before registering is more complicated than just making new rules.

    I agree that breeders that knowingly don't test or worse, keep breeding knowing they have a problem, no matter what breed, are not good breeders.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan. 28, 2000
    Location
    Woodville, Virginia
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    377

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    Stephanie:

    I am VERY sorry about your mare. And I'm sorry that your vet was not able to help you manage her symptoms better.

    The best horse I ever owned (and I've had horses for 40 years) was an EPSM horse--7/8ths Arabian and 1/8th stock-type pinto. However, his symptoms were VERY manageable through diet, close management, excellent veterinarian support, and meds. He foxhunted (hunted hounds and whipped in), we trail rode for 6 hours, competed in ranch versatility events and two-day clinics, showed in open and breed shows (rated and schooling) in hunter over fences, dressage, western trail, and more. He accompanied me on trips up and down the east coast, and from Virginia to Nebraska and South Dakota and back.

    My horse was NOT the result of high-dollar, money-motivated breeding--he was the result of someone choosing to breed to a stallion who had an excellent mind, solid all around performance record, and was known to throw babies who were just like him.

    My horse's half-brother by the same stallion also has EPSM, and is foxhunting very successfully--also whipping in, which is very demanding on a horse.

    My point is twofold: a) that EPSM/PSSM is NOT necessarily a death sentence. Most EPSM/PSSM horses can be managed, and can continue to live long, comfortable, happy lives; and b) EPSM/PSSM horses are not necessarily the result of greediness.

    Should breeders and buyers be more aware of this disorder? Yes! But there are MANY crippling and debilitating diseases and disorders that are the result of either genetics or conformation that we all need to be more aware of.

    Sadly, I lost my EPSM horse almost three years ago due to a random pasture accident that had absolutely nothing to do with EPSM. So I know all too well the grief associated with losing a horse you love, and you will be in my thoughts.

    JTA
    Jennifer Thomas Alcott
    Woodville, Virginia
    http://www.theshingleshanty.com



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb. 20, 2012
    Posts
    1

    Default PSSM Forum on Facebook

    While the majority of people associate PSSM (referred to as EPSM outside the stock horse industry) as a Draft disease, it is associated with at least 20 breeds, to date.

    There's a very informative group on Facebook (PSSM Forum)that has a lengthy list of stock horses' test results for PSSM Type 1 (both positive and negative). The group is trying to educate about the disease and encourage testing.

    Since the source(s) of PSSM have not been identified, yet Joe Hancock has been mentioned as a possible source in Quarter Horses (we have a concentration of his blood among our horses) we are testing--starting with the horses with the highest number of crosses and blood percentage of Joe Hancock. The first mare has 26 crosses to JH in 10 generations, 19% by blood and PSSM1 n/n. The second mare has 8 crosses, 17% by blood and PSSM n/n.

    Testing for the Type 1 of PSSM has just recently become available. Type 2 still has ongoing research.



  15. #15
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    Oct. 26, 2010
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    Orygun
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    That is a precedent that was established after a lawsuit brought by a quarter horse breeder, Malvin Hatley, when he could not register some horse from registered parents because association rules said a horse with white past certain arbitrary lines could not be registered.
    That particular horse was a full bro of Pacific Dan. I remember that, the horse had a little curl of white that went past the line of eye to the edge of the lip. I thought sure the AQHA would win that one, but nope, sure didn't.

    Has anyone seen the QH who is marked like a blanketed Appy? I can't think of his name. He's a sorrel (or close, maybe more red) and a big blankie with peacock spots, if I remember right. Both parents were registered QH's. Sump'in' came out of the woodpile!!
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  16. #16
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRRanch View Post
    While the majority of people associate PSSM (referred to as EPSM outside the stock horse industry) as a Draft disease, it is associated with at least 20 breeds, to date.

    There's a very informative group on Facebook (PSSM Forum)that has a lengthy list of stock horses' test results for PSSM Type 1 (both positive and negative). The group is trying to educate about the disease and encourage testing.

    Since the source(s) of PSSM have not been identified, yet Joe Hancock has been mentioned as a possible source in Quarter Horses (we have a concentration of his blood among our horses) we are testing--starting with the horses with the highest number of crosses and blood percentage of Joe Hancock. The first mare has 26 crosses to JH in 10 generations, 19% by blood and PSSM1 n/n. The second mare has 8 crosses, 17% by blood and PSSM n/n.

    Testing for the Type 1 of PSSM has just recently become available. Type 2 still has ongoing research.
    Joe Hancock and Leo are two AQHA lines that are known to have draft way back in there.
    They also have much else.
    Even with careful line breeding, you won't always get everything in some lines to pop up.
    One way to know is genetic testing and we are getting more and more of that now.



  17. #17
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    Oct. 3, 2002
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    Boogerville, USA
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    The American Quarter Horse: The disposable breed.




  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nasalberry View Post
    The American Quarter Horse: The disposable breed.

    Was that necessary?



  19. #19
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    Oct. 3, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Was that necessary?
    Hey ~ That is exactly how the so-called "professionals" around my area treat them - they are used-up and ready for the kill pen by 9 - 12 years of age. I kid you not. These people are class-1 asshats.

    they really do.
    And yes that pisses me off.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nasalberry View Post
    Hey ~ That is exactly how the so-called "professionals" around my area treat them - they are used-up and ready for the kill pen by 9 - 12 years of age. I kid you not. These people are class-1 asshats.

    they really do.
    And yes that pisses me off.
    That is no reason to bash a whole breed of horses.

    We used to breed, train and race both, TBs and AQHAs.
    In our experience, the AQHA ones were not the ones you may have considered the "disposable" ones.



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