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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2009
    Location
    Alberta's bread basket
    Posts
    1,598

    Default

    Found it! Here's the foundational list of stallions:

    1. Achill 1849 Germany
    2. Alderman I 1909 Germany
    3. Cherbourg 1880 France
    4. Cicero 1889 Germany
    5. Conquerant 1858 France
    6. Eros 1926 Sweden
    7. Flick 1861 Germany
    8. Fling 1911 Germany
    9. Goldschlaeger I 1909 Germany
    10. Hannibal 1864 Germany
    11. Kapirat 1844 France
    12. Landessohn 1846 Germany
    13. Landgraf 1897 Germany
    14. Malcolm 1840 Germany
    15. Norfolk 1843 Germany
    16. Normand 1869 France
    17. Pledge 1846 France
    18. Royal Chestnut 1917 France
    19. Rubico 1877 Germany
    20. Ruthard 1890 Germany
    21. Schl├╝tter 1867 Germany
    22. Seducteur 1852 France
    23. Vas Y Donc 1921 France
    24. Wittelsbacher 1890 Germany
    25. Zernebog 1845 Germany.
    http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 2007
    Location
    Mirabel, QC
    Posts
    2,656

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    It's not the DNA that's new and not the DNA immediate parentage verification that's holding things up.

    It is my understanding that what's holding it up is the new tracking policy whereby all new Canadian Warmblood horses that are registered have to be verified/confirmed to descend back to one of a core group of foundational stallions. The backlog comes because this tracing is also retro to all existing registrations, plus new ones. If you check your horse's verification on the CLRC website, it will state whether your horse has been confirmed traced or not.

    This new tracing is in place because the CWHBA was recently awarded approval by the Ministry that it's registered horses are part of a DISTINCT BREED. Therefore, in order to prove your horses are part of this Distinct Breed, ancestry must be traced back to one of these stallions. THIS is what is taking so long. If you can imagine, some of those stallions sired literally thousands of offspring, and their offspring could have sired hundreds or thousands and eventually it trickles down to your horse... LOTS of horses to wade through in order to determine your horse's ancestry.

    Once they have all the descendants from that core group, the tracing becomes much faster, but in the meantime, there are literally hundreds of thousands of offspring to trace back to find those stallions. Not hundreds of thousands of CWHBA horses, but ALL of the kids, grandkids, great grandkids, great-great grandkids of those initial core group of stallions because any of those descendants could have sired the parent of your particular horse. It would not be an easy job, but it would be enormously interesting and educational for sure!

    Edited to add: There might also be some other details and/or conditions involved in the process that is also taking up extra time, I am not privy since I'm not part of the CWHBA staffing and, therefore, not entirely in the know, but I distinctly remember being sent an email about the tracing and something about serious backlog and the CWHBA requesting our patience.

    I had a list of those core foundational stallions at one time, but I have accidently deleted it. Fling (Flingarth x Kilbe) is one for sure.

    To pick on a CWHBA stallion - say Royal Senna - He has had confirmed Trace Back:
    http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/pedigree....gnumbersuffix=

    Cindy, for what's worth, a 2010 foal shouldn't be backlogged by now I wouldn't think - maybe phone them and see if perhaps the papers got lost in transit?
    OOoohhh! Interesting.

    Thank you Rodawn!
    www.EquusMagnificus.ca
    Breeding & Sales - Currently: Eventing & Derby prospects
    Facebook | YouTube |Twitter | LinkedIn



  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep. 16, 2002
    Location
    B.C., Canada
    Posts
    376

    Default CWHBA delayed issuing of papers and transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by pryme_thyme View Post
    Holy nickers!
    That is a bit rediculous! I did however receive a personal apology from the president of the CWBA in August for the delay. He explained they were only then starting to issue papers that were backlogged though, in the few emails I have send I get the ....
    "We hope to have these in your hands in the next 2-4 weeks..."

    I get things take time but give a better timeline if you cannot make that.

    I have personally called and spoken to Victoria the office manager, who is very nice mind you, but that does not seem to help. I am always gracious and understanding but work with me please...
    pryme_thyme, let me be one more person here to add to the long list of apologies that you and other members have received. Sadly, our apologies will not necessarily speed the process, but my explanation below may help your understanding of the process.

    From the stand point of the association, this is an unprecedented situation causing the delay in processing papers. It is a one off, and once this backlog is settled, it is our fervent hope that this should not continue to happen.

    The unfortunate part of the process is, that once the government said they were processing the approval of CWHBA/Warmblood as a distinct breed the CLRC stopped work .... CLRC was told to halt all processing of paperwork. Sadly, this included paperwork that was already processed through our office but not yet through CLRC ... including yours and Cindy's and many others. Even work that had been processed through our office, had to go back for this new trace back system to be implemented.

    The regulations now state that each horse MUST have a percentage trace back to our foundation animals on their papers. Until that has been determined, CLRC cannot issue the papers. This is not a % Warmblood, but a % relatedness to the influential sires that 'rodawn' kindly listed.

    From those influential sires, we are developing the list of foundation animals that must then be approved by Agriculture Canada before CLRC can update them on the database as TRACE BACK APPROVED. We could have near all of the ancestors approved, but if say one (1) of the 32 in the 4th generation is missing, they cannot be processed. I think you can imagine it is a completely onerous task. Right now, we are finding a number of horses we thought were done, are missing that one animal, so back to the trace sheets we go.

    The current / new process is now:

    1. your paperwork is received and processed at the national office

    2. that process involves a trace back of the pedigree of the animal being done with one of two results:-
    a) the individual can be shown as TRACE BACK APPROVED and paperwork is sent to CLRC where the papers will be issued ... I am personally seeing about a month to 6 weeks for mailout of those papers ... hence the members who have their papers, or
    b) there are lines in the pedigree not yet having trace approval which means several things need to happen ... go to #3.

    3. for animals where lines of pedigree are missing, and / or trace approval is missing, these need to be researched to determine if sufficient pedigree can be established to add to the foundation animals in your horse. While this sounds like a relatively straight forward task, it isn't always so ... and you might be surprised to see the list of horses in our books whose pedigree did not exist past the 4 or 5 generations back on their parent's papers. I'm talking some big name stallions here!!!!

    4. a very straight forward trace back may involve just connecting the needed ancestors in the CLRC database to show the TRACE BACK APPROVED individuals. I love those ones as they are very simple and #2.a. procedure then follows.

    5. a trace back that requires a lot of research can require many hours spent in numerous reliable database or going back to the original registering body of the individual to show the missing generations of pedigree that CLRC must add to their database and the new Foundation animals that must be submitted to the APA officials for approval. While the government has stated that they are working with us and want to get this process completed as fast as possible, the turnaround time can vary greatly.

    6. Government turnaround of approval of new Foundation animals can be as fast as 3 weeks, or as long as 8 - 9 weeks as in the November 29 list not returned approved until early February and the January 19 list arriving back February 20 ... approximate dates are from memory. Occasionally a submitted foundation animal is not accepted, then we have to go back to determine if another should be submitted ... fortunately, this rarely happens and maybe only 10 of nearly 2,000 has this happened to.

    7. To be accepted as a Foundation animal, the ancestor must have a name, registration number, year or decade of birth, pedigree to grandparents, recognized and accepted studbook. There is provision if some of that is missing (as in the case of early French horses) to approve the animal provided the other information is present.

    8. In the interim, as soon as a trace back is submitted to CLRC, and then the list of new Foundation animals is submitted to the government, the CLRC data person is already inputting that information into the CLRC database and adding pedigree as needed, so that as soon as approval arrives, all papers needing those ancestors can be immediately processed. With receipt of the February 19 list, CLRC processed and mailed 50 sets of papers.

    Additional Notes:
    • When we started this process well over 18 months ago, our goal was to have all the current CWHBA approved / licensed stallions already TRACE BACK APPROVED. While this goal was not achieved 100%, it was largely met and much of what we are dealing with are mare lines.
    • We are continuing to catch up with the CWHBA approved / licensed stallions as we find them cropping up in a pedigree and mostly they are not the current stallions.
    • Even mainstream stud books such as the Hanoverian Verband do not have complete pedigree records on their horses. They have kindly given us access to their online mare database and it can take a bit of ingenuity to find the information there, because they, like most European books, have not been as concerned with the record keeping of all but the most significant of mare lines.
    • Personally, I have spent many 10 - 14 hour days completing pedigree of individuals that the office staff were not able to easily confirm. Those trace back sheets can sit with me for some time before I can send them off, especially if we have to wait for information from a European or USA stud book.
    • Then, we still have to submit the Foundation animals.


    So, all I can ask is your continuing patience. Everyone is working as hard and fast as they can to catch up from that cease work order. If your papers were from quite a long time back, and they were caught up in that, there must have been some piece of information missing that kept them at the office.

    For those of you wanting to get your EC competition Passport, you do not need your physical papers to do that. There are two (2) options:
    a) if you horse is already registered and this is a transfer of registration, you can go to the CLRC database which is public, and print off your horse's page and ask the office for a confirmation letter of transfer to your ownership with effective date.
    b) if you horse is not already registered, the office can supply you with a different letter stating that the application for registration has been received and paid for, that it is currently being processed and this is the pedigree of the animal. What they won't be able to give you is a registration number yet since that will only be generated when the paperwork is processed.

    For those of you who have sold a horse, and the new owner wants proof of registration, then go to b) as above and request the same letter. You can also submit the transfer of ownership to the office to be processed at the same time as the registration papers.

    GOING FORWARD:
    • I can only urge you to enter your mare as early as possible that you know she will be bred. Then the process is complete long before you want to register a foal.
    • if you have young stock unregistered that you know you plan to register and sell, get their paperwork into the office as soon as possible, and chances are the process will be complete before a transfer is required.


    Lastly, if you are concerned about your paperwork, please e-mail me directly at: stalliondirectory@canadianwarmbloods.com and I should be able to tell you where your application is at with regards to the government and CLRC. I will need your name, horse name and some pedigree. Please do not post here expecting a response ... I am rarely on here these days and only came on to post a reply to these questions.

    I hope this helps, Marilyn



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2009
    Location
    Alberta's bread basket
    Posts
    1,598

    Default

    Super information Marilyn. While I find pedigree tracing very interesting, this is an enormous task to the extreme. It would not surprise me that tracing continues for some considerable time yet, made worse by the various government red tape, regulations and general slow down just because government is involved. How lucky for you!

    I have done some pedigree tracing myself, just for information's sake, and I must say, mareline tracing is among the most difficult lineages to trace as not all mares were named according to their sireline, some were just named after the farm they were born on or the region they lived in. I tried to follow Fling back to his roots of origins and hit a dead end right around 1833 - his mareline has Napoleon Mare born in 1833 roughly, was named after her sire, Napoleon, but I can personally find nothing for her damline. Record keeping just wasn't a major priority back in the early 1800s. I realize the CWHBA probably doesn't have to go back that far, but for my own enlightenment it gave me a rough idea of the task ahead for the CWHBA for the more modern Foundational Animals that required tracing. Yeesh.

    To say the CWHBA is undertaking a complicated process is the understatement of the decade! Good luck with that!

    Marilyn, is there a minimum % related blood a horse is now required to possess in order to be considered as belonging to the foundational animal family?
    http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep. 16, 2002
    Location
    B.C., Canada
    Posts
    376

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    >
    Marilyn, is there a minimum % related blood a horse is now required to possess in order to be considered as belonging to the foundational animal family?
    No, there is no minimum required % ... we have horses as low as 3%.
    ~M



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar. 22, 2011
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    856

    Default

    I wanted to announce I have offically received my CWHBA papers. YAY!

    The whole process has taken 13 months.



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Sep. 16, 2002
    Location
    B.C., Canada
    Posts
    376

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by pryme_thyme View Post
    I wanted to announce I have offically received my CWHBA papers. YAY!

    The whole process has taken 13 months.
    Thanks for letting us know pryme_thyme ... SO glad to hear that.

    Thank you again for your patience in waiting for your papers. For other members still waiting on papers, the trace back work continues on new stallion or mares lines ... they will come once their Foundation Animals are approved.

    As I wrote in my earlier post, if you are concerned, please e-mail me directly at: stalliondirectory@canadianwarmbloods.com and I should be able to tell you where your application is at with regards to the government and CLRC. I will need your name, horse name and some pedigree. Please do not post here expecting a response ... I am rarely on here these days.

    Marilyn



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