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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 9, 2002
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    176

    Default When is a rider a "Rider"

    Scenario – An adult amateur, Ammie, competes Horse A at Training, never been above Training. Ammie gets new horse, Horse B, and is ready to ride Novice. Can Ammie ride as a Novice Rider? Or, is the phrase “an event” interpreted as once Ammie completed 1 event at Training level she could no longer compete as a Novice Rider?

    The first part of the first sentence implies that Ammie could ride as both Novice Rider and Training Rider as long as she does not (or has not) complete a Preliminary event. However, the examples use the phrase “an event”.
    The rule says “a Training Rider may have completed an event at Preliminary level” … but does not address if the rider has completed more than one event at Preliminary.

    Guess the same questions applies to “Horse” -

    Here's the new rule for "Rider" and “Horse” - from Appendix 3 -
    4.5 RIDER (R) – Open to competitors who have not completed an event above the next highest level in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition, e.g. a Novice Rider may have completed an event at Training level, but not Preliminary level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition; a Training Rider may have completed an event at Preliminary level, but not Intermediate level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition.
    4.6 HORSE (H) – Open to competitors of any age, horse may not have completed an event above the next highest level, e.g. a Novice Horse may have completed an event at Training level, but not Preliminary level or higher; a Training Horse may have completed an event at Preliminary level, but not Intermediate level or higher.
    4.7 For the purposes of this rule, FEI divisions are considered to be one level higher than the equivalent National division, e.g. FEI One Star is one level higher than a Preliminary Horse Trial. A rider who has completed an event at the Advanced Level is not eligible to compete as an Intermediate rider.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 11, 2005
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    Default

    Below copied from rules above...I think it is pretty self explanatory. Basically if you have ridden above training level in the last 5 years you may not go in the Novice rider division...

    "e.g. a Novice Rider may have completed an event at Training level, but not Preliminary level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition"
    "A little less chit-chat a little more pitter-pat"



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug. 9, 2002
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    176

    Default

    Sorry, guess I didn't ask my question clearly.

    Rider has never gone above Training but has done multiple events at Training. Enters an event as Training Rider. Can rider also enter on 2d horse as Novice Rider.

    4.5 RIDER (R) – Open to competitors who have not completed an event above the next highest level in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition, e.g. a Novice Rider may have completed an event at Training level, but not Preliminary level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition; a Training Rider may have completed an event at Preliminary level, but not Intermediate level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition.

    The example in the rule uses the term "an event" which implies that after completing 1 Training event they can no longer be a Novice Rider, but if you just read the first part of the rule "Open to competitors who have not completed an event above the next highest level"... then in the scenario I gave above, the rider could enter as Training Rider and Novice Rider.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
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    West Coast of Michigan
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    36,321

    Default

    If you have never completed a Preliminary HT, you may compete in Novice or Training Rider divisions. IMO, however, and it's a completely worthless one, it would be sort of tacky to enter two different levels of "Rider" divisions (at the same show especially). Legal, but tacky.

    The example in the rule uses the term "an event" which implies that after completing 1 Training event they can no longer be a Novice Rider, but if you just read the first part of the rule "Open to competitors who have not completed an event above the next highest level"... then in the scenario I gave above, the rider could enter as Training Rider and Novice Rider.
    That's not how I read it. It says a Novice rider may not have completed an event at Preliminary level. That rider can do as many Trainings as they want.
    Click here before you buy.



  5. #5
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    Feb. 11, 2005
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    Pa
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    Default

    I have to agree with Deltawave....You should enter Training rider but to then enter Novice rider would be tacky.
    It's kind of a funny rule because by that standard then if I don't compete for 2 more years (have been out of circulation for 3) then I can enter as "Novice rider" but I have competed Advanced for many years in the past. Do you think that would be fair....I don't.
    IMO if you can go training level then you shouldn't be allowed to go Novice rider.
    Just out of curiosity.... why would you want to go in the rider division at both levels?


    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    If you have never completed a Preliminary HT, you may compete in Novice or Training Rider divisions. IMO, however, and it's a completely worthless one, it would be sort of tacky to enter two different levels of "Rider" divisions (at the same show especially). Legal, but tacky.



    That's not how I read it. It says a Novice rider may not have completed an event at Preliminary level. That rider can do as many Trainings as they want.
    "A little less chit-chat a little more pitter-pat"



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 4, 2004
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    Default

    IMO there is nothing "tacky" about competing in divisions that you are eligible for. The rule could have been written to say that rider divisions are only open to those who have never competed above the level, but it wasn't--it says 2 levels above the level, which presumably was the rule-authors' decision to make.

    The 5 years portion may be more of a technological limitation than the spirit of the rule, as complaints such as "X competed prelim in 1970" could be tough to research.

    Still, I really dislike the idea that we are adding an extra level of judgment outside of the written rules. That is sort of like the braiding or coats controversies.



  7. #7
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    Aug. 9, 2002
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    176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRuss1996 View Post
    Just out of curiosity.... why would you want to go in the rider division at both levels?
    I'm not a rider, just trying to interpret the rule. Saw it done at an event this week.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Default

    Under the new rules, once you complete at Training, you lose (for 5 years) your elegibility for Beginner Novice Rider, but you can compete at both Novice Rider and Training Rider.

    Once you complete at Prelim, you lose (for 5 years) your elegibility for Novice Rider (and Beginner Novice Rider), but you can compete at both Prelim Rider and Training Rider.

    USEA would not have changed the rules if they didn't EXPECT people to take advantage of it.

    Whetehr or not YOU take advantage of it depends on your own perspective.

    That perspective also depends on how other people around you are interpreting.

    For instance, suppose you have never competed at Prelim, but have competed at Nov and Training for many years. There are lots of people like that. If most of them are now entering Nov Rider, then there is no reason for you to avoid it. However, if most of them are sticking to the Open division, then it would be more socially acceptable for you to stick to open.

    It also depends on who is competing in the Horse and Open divisions. In some events, the majority of the riders at Open Novice and Novice Horse have competed at Advanced in the last year, many on "the short list". At those events, the "perpetual Novice/Training ider" is clearly outclassed in the Open Novice division. At those events, I would expect it to be much more socially acceptable for the "perpetual Novice /Training rider" to enter "Novice Rider".

    Less so at events where most of the riders in Open Novice have never completed above Prelim.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  9. #9
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beam Me Up View Post
    The 5 years portion may be more of a technological limitation than the spirit of the rule, as complaints such as "X competed prelim in 1970" could be tough to research.
    I don't think that is the motivation. It is "5 years" for "Rider", but "ever" for "Horse"

    There is no significant technical difference in keeping track of Horse vs Rider history.
    Last edited by Janet; Jan. 30, 2012 at 09:27 AM.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  10. #10
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    Sep. 13, 1999
    Location
    Avon, NY
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    181

    Default

    What is the effective date for the new rule?



  11. #11
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    Default

    It was approved by the USEF BoD 1/23/11 Effective 12/1/11 (Dec 1, 2011).

    So it is in effect now.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  12. #12
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRuss1996 View Post
    It's kind of a funny rule because by that standard then if I don't compete for 2 more years (have been out of circulation for 3) then I can enter as "Novice rider" but I have competed Advanced for many years in the past. Do you think that would be fair....I don't.
    They have actually tightened up that part of the rule.

    Under the old rule, you would be eligible for the "Rider" divisions NOW, as the old rule was based on "24 months" for the rider.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  13. #13
    Join Date
    May. 4, 2007
    Posts
    191

    Default

    Best not to worry about what subdivision of novice, training or prelim you are in. At the end of the competition look at the scores. Sometimes the novice rider have lower scores then the open novice. I think people should not only follow the rules, but do what is right. I may have not competed above prelim, but I have many years of experience at novice and training and many yrs ago at prelim. I would be embarrassed to compete in novice rider. Now I may put a greenie in novice horse. But you can never predict the outcome. At one event I had thought I signed my horse up for novice horse as this was our first novice event. I was put in open novice and just left well enough alone. Out of 22 horses, she was the only one to have a double clear on xc and we finished 4th among some very distinguished professionals. I looked at our score against the NH division and we would have been in 3rd place. I would rather have the 4th against the people I was competing against.
    Just my opinion.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep. 5, 1999
    Location
    Central FL
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    4,559

    Default

    Just my 2 cents:

    I hate this rule.

    It irritates me to see riders who last year were competing and winning at Novice riding in the BNR divisions this winter.

    They are correctly following the rules - no shame on them - but I think this violates the SPIRIT of the Beginnner Novice Rider division.

    Everyone has a story...but why can't they be in the Open divisions instead?



  15. #15
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    Nov. 7, 2006
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    Knoxville TN
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    Default

    I think the rules need an overhaul. At the moment, the Rider division excludes almost nobody except true, current professionals and UL riders. I can sit forever in BN Rider if I like. It should be for people new to riding at BN. It's crazy that I can go take tinyPony round a Novice course and then straight away put her in BNR.


    My very first BN (when I really could have done with being in the Rider division), I was in the Open. Which was cool because I was scared witless on Day 1, but by Day 2, we'd had the overnight scores and my little pony had already whupped a few people who'd made it round Rolex. And there we were, gallolloping in and out of real rolex jumps at the horse park, kicking butt Best day of my life. But I digress. If the Rider restrictions were more meaningful, there would be space in that division to put people doing their first events (like I was then), and not have it full up with career-weenies (like I am now).

    I don't think I should be allowed to take each years' new baby pony into BN-Rider division. Regardless of how far up the levels I haven't been - if I'm making a whole career out of starting little horses at BN, clearly, I'm becoming an expert rider in that limited field, and I should have 'aged out' at some point in the past 5 years, surely ?



  16. #16
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    Apr. 2, 2009
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    North Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlightCheck View Post
    Just my 2 cents:

    I hate this rule.

    It irritates me to see riders who last year were competing and winning at Novice riding in the BNR divisions this winter.

    They are correctly following the rules - no shame on them - but I think this violates the SPIRIT of the Beginnner Novice Rider division.

    Everyone has a story...but why can't they be in the Open divisions instead?
    I agree with this completely. I rode up to Training Rider before my horse got injured. With new horse, I will be starting over at BN. I would feel guilty to enter BNR (which I techincally could since I did not COMPLETE a Training Level event, re injury) and I don't think it is fair. With new horse, I will enter either "open" or "horse" divisions until he gets to Training. That is what the other divisions are for.

    Why should I, who has been comfortable competing/Training at Training level, feel proud about competing against someone at BN who may be at their first time out and 2'7" is a really big deal to them? That would feel unfair to me and I would not make that choice.



  17. #17
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    Feb. 4, 2004
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    Default

    Thanks for the clarification Janet. I just assumed that they were limited to the online records, but you are right if horse is "ever" then they could have made rider "ever" if they wanted to.

    I think it is fine for individuals to choose to ride in whatever division they are comfortable with, but it seems like with so many different interpretations of the "spirit" of the rule, it's hard to judge anyone following it.


    For instance, I'd always assumed that the "spirit" was to separate the true lower level riders from the Boyd/Karens of the world, which is how it looks in Area II. In that case, someone who has only ridden to training is probably more like the population of the "novice rider" division than "open."

    But Kate above seems to feel that the rule should separate riders new to the level vs. those experienced at the level, which is also a valid point, and more along the lines of other show disciplines who divide by number of blue ribbons won, etc.

    But really the rule does neither, since it only goes back 5 years.

    I don't know, I don't feel strongly about what the rule should be, since nobody will agree on the ideal spirit or letter.



  18. #18
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    May. 10, 2009
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    188

    Default

    It doesn't matter how the rule is written or what the intention is. Someone is always unhappy. It is a total PITA trying to keep up with rules that are constantly changing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlightCheck View Post
    Just my 2 cents:

    I hate this rule.

    It irritates me to see riders who last year were competing and winning at Novice riding in the BNR divisions this winter.

    They are correctly following the rules - no shame on them - but I think this violates the SPIRIT of the Beginnner Novice Rider division.

    Everyone has a story...but why can't they be in the Open divisions instead?
    That's really what it comes down to right, if the person were following the rules but they weren't winning or taking home points/ribbons no one would care. It's only when said rider is better than "me" that my nose gets out of joint.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2001
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    5,373

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    The idea behind revamping the Rider rule was to protect those riders who try to do a move up, find out that neither they nor their horse are really ready, and then allow them to continue to ride against their peers in the lower division - for those who want to. Particularly in the East, the "Open" and "Horse" divisions are almost entirely professionals, and it can be pretty daunting. If more organizers offered an "Amateur" division, the problem might more readily be solved, but as it is, this is the best compromise we could come up with at the time. We chose to err on the side of giving more flexibility to folks who wanted to ride in Rider divisions, thinking that in the culture of eventing, folks who were regularly cleaning up in that division would usually take it on themselves to move to an Open division.

    End of the day, enter the division where you feel comfortable. Or the one that's scheduled in a way that fits your needs. Or the one that is set to have dressage in the outdoor/indoor/grass/footing/hill/judge-who-hates/likes-your-horse. Gah.



  20. #20
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    May. 10, 2009
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    Default

    There are two ladies in one area that have been winning the area championship at their level for YEARS. They typically have more than double the number of points the reserve champion. It has been suggested that they no longer be allowed to win the year end award.

    Would that be any more correct than saying Phillip Dutton should no longer be eligible for Rider of the Year - after all he has won it so many times. Should we kick Mary King and WFP out of the FEI, they really make it so hard for everyone else to win.

    What are we coming to that the best horse/rider can't be name the BEST. That is what they are.



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