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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarynls View Post
    In fact, my horse was recently hospitalzed for a nephrosplenic entrapment. He was administered phenylephrine to shrink his spleen....

    You may know phenylephrine as the over-the-counter human medications "Sudafed PE", "Dimetapp Cold Drops" and others. It's also an ingredient in Preperation-H (hemmordial cream / ointment).

    Just a case of a medication being used off-label - and being COMPOUNDED for IV administration.
    Davinista - Keeping in mind phenylephrine is a an over the counter human drug - not intended for IV administration in the equine....

    I am genuinely curious - do you feel that the veterinary clinic should not have had the compounded phenylephrine on hand? If they didn't, my horse would be dead.

    You seem to avoid my questions, perhaps you will give us your opinion on this one.
    Last edited by tarynls; Jan. 12, 2012 at 01:21 PM. Reason: added name



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Can you please clarify for me? Specifically, how the use of Pentosan on the order of a vet is illegal?
    You can not get Pentosan compounded. It is available without compounding from a manufacturer. Pentosan is not as black and white as say getting bute compounded or pergolide and such. But it would be the same theory. What is your theory on why very few vets will not write a script? I only know of 2 in Colorado that will. That is roughly out of like 30 vets that I know.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    So again, if YOU YOURSELF are very sure about the law, as you seem to have indicated, can you PLEASE very precisely and specifically point out the difference between off label and illegal?
    Thanks, DW. You stated what I was trying to, in a more eloquent manner (as usual)!



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarynls View Post
    Davinista - Keeping in mind phenylephrine is a an over the counter human drug - not intended for IV administration in the equine....

    I am genuinely curious - do you feel that the veterinary clinic should not have had the compounded phenylephrine on hand? If they didn't, my horse would be dead.

    You seem to avoid my questions, perhaps you will give us your opinion on this one.
    Not avoiding, I simply don't know the answer. I am not familiar with clinics having it on hand compounded so I don't have a comment on it!



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    So again, if YOU YOURSELF are very sure about the law, as you seem to have indicated, can you PLEASE very precisely and specifically point out the difference between off label and illegal?
    What is are you not able to following along with? It seems pretty clear.



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by davistina67 View Post
    You can not get Pentosan compounded. It is available without compounding from a manufacturer. Pentosan is not as black and white as say getting bute compounded or pergolide and such. But it would be the same theory. What is your theory on why very few vets will not write a script? I only know of 2 in Colorado that will. That is roughly out of like 30 vets that I know.
    Who is the manufacturer of pentosan? Surely they have a website?

    And yes, you CAN get bute compounded. When you order flavored bute powder, that's technically compounding the drug. Yes, something as simple as adding flavors constitutes compounding.



  7. #27
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    I simply bring up that fact as clients ask vets to get pentosan for them all the time. Boards like this can mislead people in that the client thinks a vet should just write a script when in fact, the vets hands are tied. Carry on!



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarynls View Post
    Who is the manufacturer of pentosan? Surely they have a website?

    And yes, you CAN get bute compounded. When you order flavored bute powder, that's technically compounding the drug. Yes, something as simple as adding flavors constitutes compounding.
    Oh my, if you are working in the industry I hope you know the law better then that. I don't have time to look right now but I think you can even do a search on that one and find that it is illegal. That was published in pretty much every vet journal that you can't compound bute.



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by davistina67 View Post
    Not avoiding, I simply don't know the answer. I am not familiar with clinics having it on hand compounded so I don't have a comment on it!
    We are all entitled to our opinions, but in the medical field they need to be supported by facts. You have the opinion, but not the facts to back it up.

    So before you tell me that my vet carrying pentosan that was specifically compounded for his clinic is illegal, please check your facts.

    And believe me, the state racing commissions know just about the same amount of info re: illegal and legal drugs than your average pharmacist. That's their JOB - to find the illegal stuff and fine or ban the vet/trainer/whoever happens to be in possession of said medication.


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by davistina67 View Post
    Oh my, if you are working in the industry I hope you know the law better then that. I don't have time to look right now but I think you can even do a search on that one and find that it is illegal. That was published in pretty much every vet journal that you can't compound bute.
    Do tell. What vet journals are you reading that are telling you that flavoring bute is illegal??

    Adding a flavor to bute is technically considered compounding (at least in my state).



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarynls View Post
    Do tell. What vet journals are you reading that are telling you that flavoring bute is illegal??

    Adding a flavor to bute is technically considered compounding (at least in my state).
    If you are truly in the industry you would know that it is not a state law. It is an FDA thing.



  12. #32
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    Hi Cowgirl heard you guys actually got that some of that stuff they call snow.

    I'll have to check with my vet about the dosage issue. He has prescribed it as 6ml per dose for my 17.1h horse. But I do know that at that dosage a 12ml bottle is $80 so that would be $40 a dose. I actually just bot two bottles an hour before I posted that.

    As for the drug not having FDA approval for anything other than surgical lavage, it is my understanding that in Australia it has been used IM for years for treatment of Osteo Arthritis but that it is slowly making its way through the approval process. A political issue not a medical one.

    Erica
    Erica H. Max
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    Breeders and Importers of Danish Warmbloods

    www.danishwarmblood.com



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by davistina67 View Post
    If you are truly in the industry you would know that it is not a state law. It is an FDA thing.
    If you are speaking of Superiorbute powder, yes, that is a bute powder that is FDA approved. However, the sweeteners aren't something I personally would ingest.

    From the patent page on the Superiorbute website: "2. The carrier formulation as set forth in claim 1, wherein said powdered carrier includes a plurality of non-sugar sweeteners selected from the group consisting of saccharin, aspartame, and acesulfame potassium."

    Saccharin & aspartame?


    This might shed some light on the subject (taken from the Superiorbute website):

    "What is compounding?

    It is the manipulation of a (FDA approved) drug to make a different drug to meet the needs of a particular patient. For example, mixing two injectable drugs is compounding."

    If you take bute, and add some aflalfa powder to FLAVOR it, you are not making a different drug. It is still bute. You haven't changed the strength or concentration of the bute. When dosed as directed, your horse will still receive 1 gram of bute per scoop (depending on size of scoop and how much alfalfa powder was used).
    Last edited by tarynls; Jan. 12, 2012 at 02:09 PM. Reason: clarification



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by davistina67 View Post
    If you are truly in the industry you would know that it is not a state law. It is an FDA thing.
    Well, per the FDA in 2009, bute compounding is legal as long as it's not in bulk, and begins with an FDA-approved bute product. Under federal regulations, the off-label use of human drugs in animals, as long as documented, also appears to be specifically denoted as legal, with compounding addressed in section 530.13.


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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTwistedWire View Post
    Thank you, DTW, I was just searching for that document from the FDA!



  16. #36
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    Okay now I am confused....Clarification would be appreciated

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by davistina67 View Post
    You can not get Pentosan compounded.
    Then what exactly is Wedgewood selling as "pentosan"?

    It is available without compounding from a manufacturer
    But I thought the reason why it could "legally" be compounded was because there is no FDA approved Pentosan available in the US for the equine species as of right now?



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by LookinSouth View Post
    Then what exactly is Wedgewood selling as "pentosan"?

    But I thought the reason why it could "legally" be compounded was because there is no FDA approved Pentosan available in the US for the equine species as of right now?
    I believe what davistina is referring to is this pentosan product: http://www.naturevet.com.au/prodetails.php?pid=89#nd

    Note that is an Australian website:

    "Ceva Animal Health products for horses, dogs, cats and camels are distributed throughout Australia, New Zealand, Asia, the Middle East and many other parts of the world. Within Australia and New Zealand, prescription products are available only through veterinarians while OTC (Over-The-Counter) products are widely available for general sale at online and retail animal supply outlets. "

    I, personally, could not find any US manufacturers of pentosan.
    Last edited by tarynls; Jan. 12, 2012 at 02:29 PM. Reason: added website info



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by danskbreeder View Post
    Hi I'll have to check with my vet about the dosage issue. He has prescribed it as 6ml per dose for my 17.1h horse. But I do know that at that dosage a 12ml bottle is $80 so that would be $40 a dose. I actually just bot two bottles an hour before I posted that.
    Thank you. This is the info I am looking for. I am waiting for my vet to get back to me on pricing for the Pentaussie and I was just curious as to what other people were paying.

    Is the loading dose the same as Pentosan? 4, 6ml doses every 5-7 days? If so, then a course of Pentaussie would still be much more cost effective than Adequan or Legend at 160.00 for a full course which is awesome.



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by davistina67 View Post
    You can not get Pentosan compounded. It is available without compounding from a manufacturer. Pentosan is not as black and white as say getting bute compounded or pergolide and such. But it would be the same theory. What is your theory on why very few vets will not write a script? I only know of 2 in Colorado that will. That is roughly out of like 30 vets that I know.
    No it is not. Pentaussie is Pentosan AND glucosamine. There is not place that I know of in the US that sells non-compounded straight Pentosan.
    Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.



  20. #40
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    Gah!! Just heard from my vet and they are charging 310.00 for FOUR doses of Pentaussie! Usually they are very reasonable about not marking up RX but that works out to 77.50 per dose

    I would love to hear from others what they are paying for Pentaussie so I have a leg to stand on when I ask why the price is so high...sigh.



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