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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    The county prosecutor said that he was not filing charges because there were no dangerous dog laws in the county, when it turns out that the Colorado state laws should have lead to the owners prosecution for the first attack.
    From what I can tell, cops and prosecutors HATE dog cases. I don't know if it's a matter of feeling that such things are beneath them, wariness of being tarred and feathered by the crazies who come crawling out of the woodwork every time AC tries to euthanize a vicious dog, or simple overwork, but it's a rare case of dog bite that makes it to criminal court. The lousy part is, a dog who bites bad enough to be reported to the cops is usually a dog who's going to do it again, and probably better since they have some experience under their belt. If the authorities acted appropriately with the early, less lethal bites, they could prevent a lot of maulings and killings.

    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    It's actually people who cannot admit that dogs that do these things are normal dogs that are the usual cause of these problems. If you're convinced, for whatever reason, that Dogs Who Kill are rare and special dogs, instead of totally normal dogs, you're the one who doesn't make sure your fence is good and strong and it's YOUR dog who ends up mauling the horse.
    In my experience, it's the people who bleat "all dogs bite!" who are delusional owners whose dogs are out of control. It seems like once some people decide that all dogs are potentially deadly, they figure that the rest of us are all partners in our own fate - after all, we're walking down a street past a dog's yard, so we walked into his territory and we KNEW dogs were all potentially deadly.

    All dogs are omnivores and predators, but saying they're all "killers at heart" is silly. Most dogs who run into a field with a horse cause trouble because they chase it and the horse is hurt trying to get away. Chasing another animal is fairly normal, typical dog behavior (and obviously one you don't want to allow), but attacking and mauling them is not.
    A dog who grabs and mauls another animal as play not because he's hungry and hunting isn't just being a dog; he's being a POS who's a disgrace to the name dog. Not to let the owner off the hook, but the dogs aren't worth spit either.



  2. #42
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    Yes, your loving family dog might attack a child.

    As a four year old (and small for my age) I was playing with the neighborhood kids. There were 4+ dogs with us, including a German Shepherd (I don't remember the breeds of the others). I was standing there, watching the older kids run and play when the GS jumped on me from behind, grabbing my head in his mouth and taking me to the ground. The other smaller dogs also jumped in and started biting. There were some teenaged boys there who turned a hose on the dogs and pulled them off of me. I had bites to my head, arms, legs and back with the ones to my head being the most serious.

    Yes, your sweet, beloved doggie can attack children. It can join in with pack behavior. A GS can fit a small child's skull in it's mouth. I was in a place that should have been safe. I was standing there, not running, not screaming, not acting like a prey animal. The dog belonging to the homeowner was safely in it's secure run. The dogs had wandered over to see what was up. Yes, the owners were at fault for letting their dogs out, but I came uncomfortably close to paying a very high price for their ignorance.

    Since I was only 4, I don't know what was said between adults, but I never saw the GS out of it's own yard again.



  3. #43
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    The yard with the playground equipment was the dogs yard. They didn't show the horses home, but when they interviewed the horse owners they were standing in front of what looked to be a very nice barn.

    Having had sheep and rabbits attacked by loose dogs, and having seen the neighbors llama torn up by dogs just last week, dogs running around loose makes me furious. It is a shame that people have to fence their property like Fort Knox to keep out dogs that are running loose due to careless owners. I get so tired of the excuses.... they are just being dogs, MY dog would never hurt anything, having little animals is tempting my dogs, you should love that my wonderful dog comes to visit you on your property. Just keep the flipping dogs in your own yard, kennel, chain, whatever. It is not that hard to keep a dog contained.

    I really hope the owners of the dogs have to pay every cent of the vet bills for those minis. That vet bill is going to astronomical.



  4. #44
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    I agree with wendy, again. I have five dogs and one by one, on 364.75 days of the year, they are evicted by the cats from their beds, from food, from our laps... they cuddle the cats, one of them even NURSES one of the cats (a strange relationship we haven't deciphered) and the other day I saw three of the dogs following one of the cats way too intently. First time ever, but they're dogs and having five of them constitutes a pretty strong pack. I'm extremely conscious that they are not bombproof. I've never ever had them kill a thing, or even growl and the chased cat wasn't even scared but I feel like I have a loaded gun here and I stay on top of it.



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    No; they're just asshats.
    Plain and simple.
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  6. #46
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    It's the owners, not the dogs
    Seems to be the standard answer, excuse. Get rid of ALL agressive dogs. The people aren't biting, mauling and killing.



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7HL View Post
    Seems to be the standard answer, excuse. Get rid of ALL agressive dogs. The people aren't biting, mauling and killing.
    As for the old "it's the owners, not the dogs", until we can control the owners (people), the dogs will pay. Human beings, especially here in America want to do as they please at all times in all places. As long as that mentality continues and certain owners' animals wreak havoc in society, animals will be the ones to suffer because the humans sure as hell aren't going to change their behavior for the benefit or protection of anyone else.
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  8. #48
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    1
    Last edited by smokygirl; Jan. 2, 2012 at 01:40 AM.
    "Sadly, some people's greatest skill, is being an idiot". (facebook profile pic I saw).



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    As for the old "it's the owners, not the dogs", until we can control the owners (people), the dogs will pay. Human beings, especially here in America want to do as they please at all times in all places. As long as that mentality continues and certain owners' animals wreak havoc in society, animals will be the ones to suffer because the humans sure as hell aren't going to change their behavior for the benefit or protection of anyone else.
    Spot on JackieBlue!
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  10. #50
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    In my experience, it's the people who bleat "all dogs bite!" who are delusional owners whose dogs are out of control. It seems like once some people decide that all dogs are potentially deadly, they figure that the rest of us are all partners in our own fate - after all, we're walking down a street past a dog's yard, so we walked into his territory and we KNEW dogs were all potentially deadly.

    ...... but saying they're all "killers at heart" is silly.
    but true. Keep in mind I'm not condoning, or excusing, biting and killing and aggression by dogs- I'm opposed to them. I think people should think long and hard about dog temperament before breeding. I think people should at times consider euth'ning dogs for aggression/ potential aggression- for example, if two dogs got out and mauled some kids, those dogs should be euth'd fast.

    However, if you do any kind of study, real study (not just view media reports) of "dog attacks" what stands out isn't any characteristics of the dogs- most appear to be fairly normal dogs acting like you'd expect dogs to act- what stands out is the sheer stupidity of the people involved. The biggest stupidity involves utterly unrealistic expectations of dog behavior. The other problem is confusing aggression with behaviors like predation.

    The unrealistic expectations of dog behavior crop up over and over again in bite/ maul/ prey animal cases. Persons who firmly believe that all dogs can bite, and all dogs are predators, generally take steps to teach/prevent their dogs from doing so. Persons who are convinced that only "vicious dogs" bite, and who confuse predation with aggression, don't take preventative steps and have/cause problems.

    The "Disney" view of the dog is such a confusing, impossible ideal to live up to: on the one hand, the dog is supposed to aggressively guard the family, yet somehow never attack anyone, even in self defense; the dog is supposed to be an excellent hunting dog, yet never chase/kill any other animal, or even weirder, supposed to somehow instinctively know which species of animals are fair game to kill/chase and which are not (which speaks to the current case- most dogs have never seen or smelled a horse, mini or not, and haven't a clue as to what their people expect them to do around a horse; without guidance, most would probably default to chase n kill).

    And in the "Disney" view of the dog, if the dog fails, which he is almost certain to considering how unrealistic the expectations are, the people who believe in the "disney" dog immediately start shrieking that dog MUST DIE, because clearly there's something wrong with THE DOG. Not that his owners are idiots, or that's impossible to meet the standard held up, or there was a icky accidental situation that occurred, no, there's something wrong with that particular dog. Which is nonsense. If you discard the "disney" view of the dog, and study the facts of each case, you can come up with ways to prevent any dog from ever doing that again. Not in the "disney" view of the dog- in the "disney" version, each dog must individually fail and be killed after causing a horrible incident, because it's impossible to prevent these situations because they are the result of "vicious dogs", not the result of preventable occurrences happening to normal dogs.



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    but true. Keep in mind I'm not condoning, or excusing, biting and killing and aggression by dogs- I'm opposed to them. I think people should think long and hard about dog temperament before breeding. I think people should at times consider euth'ning dogs for aggression/ potential aggression- for example, if two dogs got out and mauled some kids, those dogs should be euth'd fast.

    However, if you do any kind of study, real study (not just view media reports) of "dog attacks" what stands out isn't any characteristics of the dogs- most appear to be fairly normal dogs acting like you'd expect dogs to act- what stands out is the sheer stupidity of the people involved. The biggest stupidity involves utterly unrealistic expectations of dog behavior. The other problem is confusing aggression with behaviors like predation.

    The unrealistic expectations of dog behavior crop up over and over again in bite/ maul/ prey animal cases. Persons who firmly believe that all dogs can bite, and all dogs are predators, generally take steps to teach/prevent their dogs from doing so. Persons who are convinced that only "vicious dogs" bite, and who confuse predation with aggression, don't take preventative steps and have/cause problems.

    The "Disney" view of the dog is such a confusing, impossible ideal to live up to: on the one hand, the dog is supposed to aggressively guard the family, yet somehow never attack anyone, even in self defense; the dog is supposed to be an excellent hunting dog, yet never chase/kill any other animal, or even weirder, supposed to somehow instinctively know which species of animals are fair game to kill/chase and which are not (which speaks to the current case- most dogs have never seen or smelled a horse, mini or not, and haven't a clue as to what their people expect them to do around a horse; without guidance, most would probably default to chase n kill).

    And in the "Disney" view of the dog, if the dog fails, which he is almost certain to considering how unrealistic the expectations are, the people who believe in the "disney" dog immediately start shrieking that dog MUST DIE, because clearly there's something wrong with THE DOG. Not that his owners are idiots, or that's impossible to meet the standard held up, or there was a icky accidental situation that occurred, no, there's something wrong with that particular dog. Which is nonsense. If you discard the "disney" view of the dog, and study the facts of each case, you can come up with ways to prevent any dog from ever doing that again. Not in the "disney" view of the dog- in the "disney" version, each dog must individually fail and be killed after causing a horrible incident, because it's impossible to prevent these situations because they are the result of "vicious dogs", not the result of preventable occurrences happening to normal dogs.
    Spot on post.

    And while I HATE loose dogs, if I ever found out someone had POISONED a dog (mine or someone elses), I'd be pressing the police to file criminal animal cruelty charges against them, which is a felony here in TX.



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    As for the old "it's the owners, not the dogs", until we can control the owners (people), the dogs will pay. Human beings, especially here in America want to do as they please at all times in all places. As long as that mentality continues and certain owners' animals wreak havoc in society, animals will be the ones to suffer because the humans sure as hell aren't going to change their behavior for the benefit or protection of anyone else.
    So true
    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Spot on post.

    And while I HATE loose dogs, if I ever found out someone had POISONED a dog (mine or someone elses), I'd be pressing the police to file criminal animal cruelty charges against them, which is a felony here in TX.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    As for the old "it's the owners, not the dogs", until we can control the owners (people), the dogs will pay. Human beings, especially here in America want to do as they please at all times in all places. As long as that mentality continues and certain owners' animals wreak havoc in society, animals will be the ones to suffer because the humans sure as hell aren't going to change their behavior for the benefit or protection of anyone else.
    You make my point, humans aren't going to change, so get rid of the aggressive dogs.

    Quote Originally Posted by smokygirl View Post
    Impossible to do, unless you get rid of all dogs. Irresponsible people will find a way. Ban Pitts and rotts, and they will start breeding Labs for aggressiveness or scotties or tea cup poodles. (actually the most aggressive dogs I've ever been around prey wise.. were JRTs. Thankfully they are small enough that they don't do as much damage.. as quickly/well).
    Guess you ban and get rid of them as they are produced.

    Again if its the owners then make the owners pay severely. Prison time and/or heavy fines.

    If someone had an extremely aggressive horse that couldn't be ridden, would we say it's the owners fault. There would be cries to put the horse down.

    Some solutions need to be quick fixes, because there are others that will pay the price if we don't fix immediately.



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokygirl View Post
    (actually the most aggressive dogs I've ever been around prey wise.. were JRTs. Thankfully they are small enough that they don't do as much damage.. as quickly/well).
    My family has had many fox terriers and now has a JRT, and I'm with you on this one. I've never met one that wouldn't chase squirrels and rabbits if they were loose, and getting their recall to the point of overriding a kicked in prey drive was almost impossible. My childhood dog would likely have chased a mini if she'd have met one.

    Those of you with fox/ JRT's around farms and shows, what did it take to get the recall / no chase button installed securely enough that you could let them loose around horses and livestock? both for 'no chase' and for 'don't get stomped'? It must be possible, they were bred to be part of foxhunting.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    There's no correlation between dogs chasing prey animals and dogs attacking little kids. Really. There isn't.
    Really? What if the dogs IDENTIFY kids (the human kind) as prey? Can't happen? Then why are there so many stories about dogs attacking and killing babies, toddlers and young children?



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokygirl View Post
    Impossible to do, unless you get rid of all dogs. Irresponsible people will find a way. Ban Pitts and rotts, and they will start breeding Labs for aggressiveness or scotties or tea cup poodles
    This is an unconvincing argument, as it's based as on a very weak premise that the kind of people who use large, powerful, aggressive dogs as weapons would just turn to other breeds if their breeds were banned. What stands out about it are a) the sheer improbability (can you really imagine a thuggish guy wanting a small or light dog?), and 2) the fascinating theory that the bad owner set who are typically blamed as the reason for breed bans are somehow going to engineer an athletic, muscular, dangerously aggressive Bassett in a few short years? Right. Like these people could selectively breed their way out of a paper bag.


    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    As for the old "it's the owners, not the dogs", until we can control the owners (people), the dogs will pay. Human beings, especially here in America want to do as they please at all times in all places. As long as that mentality continues and certain owners' animals wreak havoc in society, animals will be the ones to suffer because the humans sure as hell aren't going to change their behavior for the benefit or protection of anyone else.
    Damned few aggressive dogs "pay" for their behavior. In most cases, their owners are equally aggressive and employ considerable cunning in avoiding blame and reprecussions for both themselves and their beloved monster. They're adept at intimidating victims, cajoling authority, and just plain fleeing the jurisdiction when their uncontrolled asshole of a dog goes off on someone. The ones who pay are humans and dogs who get attacked. The attackers, humans or dogs, deserve no sympathy. Sure, the dogs were mishandled. But most dogs who are mishandled don't bite, or maul, or kill. They snap and then run away, they bark all the time, they get hit by cars, they are a nuisance. It takes a particular sort of dog to bite seriously in normal circumstances.



  17. #57
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    First, my heart goes out to the family that owns the minis.

    It IS the dogs' owner that should be punished now. The dogs went after small, running prey which is a natural instinct for them. PERIOD.
    It is the owner's job to keep the dogs behind adequate fencing or watch them when they are out.
    To those that say kill the dogs now, do you also think all wild animals such as bears, wild cats, and wolves should be killed? Are you god now?

    If the owner of the dogs was not around and the only way to get the dogs off the minis was to shoot the dogs then yes, do what you have to do. But killing them now is pointless and insane. Fine the owner; have him pay bills.

    And yes, I own an awesome rescue Rottie that is a big sweetheart and even had my dog-fearing mom snuggling her during her recent visit, but I'm intelligent enough to NEVER leave my dog unattended outdoors ( we don't have a fence, so she stays leashed). She has a strong prey drive and would chase something small and helpless in a second.



  18. #58
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    I live in the Houston area and read about this also.

    The article I read, KHOU Ch 11 article, said the dogs got loose and dug under the fence to get to the minis. The minis were in the backyard as Christmas gifts to the two little girls but were going to be moved to the Father's rural property after the New Year.

    The minis fought through the fence and got out to the front yard and as the dogs were mauling them in the front yard, onlookers were throwing things and hitting the dogs till the owner came to restrain them.

    So sad but the dogs actually dug under the back yard fence to get the minis...very determined dogs. Hope the horses and family recovers soon; the photo of the minis showed them to be real cuties.



  19. #59
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    Thank goodness the mini's weren't more seriously injured!

    Poor little babies They look pretty miserable.
    Proud Native Texan!
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTHokie View Post
    First, my heart goes out to the family that owns the minis.

    It IS the dogs' owner that should be punished now. The dogs went after small, running prey which is a natural instinct for them. PERIOD.
    It is the owner's job to keep the dogs behind adequate fencing or watch them when they are out.
    To those that say kill the dogs now, do you also think all wild animals such as bears, wild cats, and wolves should be killed? Are you god now?

    If the owner of the dogs was not around and the only way to get the dogs off the minis was to shoot the dogs then yes, do what you have to do. But killing them now is pointless and insane. Fine the owner; have him pay bills.

    And yes, I own an awesome rescue Rottie that is a big sweetheart and even had my dog-fearing mom snuggling her during her recent visit, but I'm intelligent enough to NEVER leave my dog unattended outdoors ( we don't have a fence, so she stays leashed). She has a strong prey drive and would chase something small and helpless in a second.
    Great post.
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