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  1. #21
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    Dec. 27, 2010
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    Poor ponies. Hope they recover well.

    The problem with 'prey drive' can be if the dog has it strong enough, anything that runs from it can become 'prey'.

    Sweet lovable family pets still have that prey drive, some more than others, and if they for whatever reason get out and about, some terrified kid, cat, smaller dog, whatever runs from them, they'll chase. The brain just clicks into a different gear. I've seen it happen with my own dog. Tail wagging love bug to hunter in .3 seconds. It doesn't have to be something the dog does normally, just one instance where the situation is juuust right to bring out the 'inner beast', especially if you get more than one and they've 'packed up'.
    Owned by a Paint/TB and an OTTB.
    RIP Scoutin' For Trouble ~ 2011 at 10
    RIP Tasha's Last Tango ~ 2010 at ~23
    RIP In Sha' Allah ~ 2009 too young at 5



  2. #22
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    Jun. 20, 2005
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    This is a bit tricky to me bc the dogs WERE fenced. The article didn't comment on whether the fence was broken for a while, so I'm not sure there was or wasn't negligence there. The owner of the dogs DID call and that's not a stupid idea given someone could be just as up in arms about someone entering their property. I know nothing of the laws where this happened but it doesn't really look like a "horsey" area. It wouldnt be surprising to me if those dogs had never seen a horse of any size. I'd imagine these 4-months old were smaller than adult rotties as well.

    Also..It certainly doesn't help issues with the public perception that these two are rotties but I gotta be honest, we've had dogs that over the years would/did kill things (groundhogs, a turkey once) and I can tell you under no uncertain circumstances did any one of them ever show an *ounce* of aggression toward a human. EVER. I also had a dog whom I lived with on a farm for a while and given the way he looked at horses I can guarantee he would've gone after one in a heartbeat and I can tell you he, too, was an absolute gentleman with every human, big or small, he ever met. I rehomed him to a family with small children as I felt given the fact that I lived on the property, despite my best intentions, I felt if he ever got out he would be a danger, as there was a mini-donk on the property as well. They love him to death and he loves their kids.

    Just because *A* dog who mauls lifestock then mauls a child does not mean *ALL* dogs who maul lifestock will maul a child.

    Also, I saw/heard nowhere that the owners were unable to control their dogs when they entered the neighbor's yard. It sounds like they were unattended in the neighbors' yard, and the neighbors clearly were able to get them off the little guys somehow and given the power of two rotties vs the size of two baby minis, I would expect the injuries to be a LOT worse if they weren't able to get the dogs rather quickly.

    So after that lengthy CSI-schpiel , I feel there isn't enough info to go shooting the dogs. And good luck to the minis on their recovery!



  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    Is that neighborhood even zoned agricultural? And were the minis in the front yard along with the swingset and stuff? Poor little guys.
    The Chron.com article said they were only being kept there for a few days. So even if it was zoned, they weren't planning to keep them around all the playground stuff. And if it wasn't zoned, they were probably just trying to sneak them in and out for the sake of a Christmas gift.

    Not saying I agree with the decision, but a lot of people will do things that are less than ideal, hoping it will be ok temporarily (and even moreso for the sake of a huge surprise gift).

    Quote Originally Posted by Liberty View Post
    Agree; however, the dogs' owner should have gone and retrieved those dogs before making phone calls. Precious minutes were wasted.
    We don't know the relationship between the neighbors (good/bad), whether the dogs' owner had reason to think the yard *should have been* empty, or the timing of the call -- before or after the dogs started chasing the minis, if the dogs' owner was close enough to hear the chase happening or only saw the dogs disappear into the yard, etc.

    Rushing blindly onto other peoples' property in Texas is not the smartest thing to do.



  4. #24
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    Jun. 7, 2002
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    Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyVagrant View Post

    Rushing blindly onto other peoples' property in Texas is not the smartest thing to do.

    That's possibly the understatement of the year!!
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  5. #25
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    May. 21, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    Oh right, let's bring up the "disney" version of the dog's nature and pretend they aren't all predators at heart who would love to chase and tear apart and eat a baby horse. Dogs are predators.

    If your dog has ever eagerly chased a squirrel, then your dog is just as dangerous as these dogs.

    They got out once through a broken fence. Not let loose to hunt the neighborhood, not serial escape artists terrorizing the area. One broken fence. The owner was concerned and took action.

    There's no correlation between dogs chasing prey animals and dogs attacking little kids. Really. There isn't.
    You can write a book about this and I still don't care.

    Dogs that will maul a mini horse, for any reason, are dangerous and will be put down. One way or another.

    If push comes to shove, toss a Prestone meatball over the fence at night.



  6. #26
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    Apr. 20, 2010
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    Harpers Ferry, WV
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    Anyone who is advocating antifreeze or rat poison as a solution has never seen an animal die that way.

    A "gentleman" here poisoned neighboring farms dogs with meat laced with antifreeze. He was so smart that he left the container with the mixture in it in his back yard. Both dogs did die. He was arrested, prosecuted and convicted. Spent 2 years behind bars and paid $$$ in legal fees.

    Sorry, had the loose dog problem in a huge way here. If I had to shoot one I could. If my animals were in danger, no issue. But to torture an animal for it's owner's ignorance is not a solution.
    www.Somermistfarm.com
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  7. #27
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    Oct. 16, 2008
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    Central Oklahoma
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    How terrible.... I figure the dog owner called first because he was about to tressspass a neighbor's property. In that situation, he should call first so he doesn't get shot himself.

    The dog owner wasn't without fault but I applaude the action in trying to savage the situation. Many would probably just shut up and the mini owners end up with two dead horses, not knowing what happened.

    This news make us glad we got a Maremma. Not that he is capable of fending off two rottweilers but I know he will try.... One afternoon I was riding in my arena when a neighbor shot a firegun into somwhere. The moment it happened, my boy ran tearing down all pastures to check on all horses before he came back to lay down next to the arena fence and snooze.



  8. #28
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    Apr. 6, 2010
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    San Diego, CA
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    Our barn has minis. They are in their own pasture though and contained with a three board with no climb on it specifically to keep stray dogs out. We've had several not even blink at running through hotwire to get to the horses. Kudos though to the owner of the dogs for calling ahead. No matter what training you put on your horse/dog/cat/child you cannot guarantee them in every situation. &^%* happens and you just have to deal with it. Jingles for the little horses and I do hope they make a complete recovery.
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.



  9. #29
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Dogs that chase *and* maul large prey (as opposed to squirrels, cats, etc) are very likely to do the same to small children. Not adults, but small children...who do not act authorative and tend to run and make high pitched noises much like larger prey does.

    There is a strong correlation between chasing, catching and repeatedly biting livestock and doing similar to small children.

    There is much less correlation between chasing squirrels, rats or cats and attacking medium to large livestock. A small fast moving anything will trigger a chase response in almost any predator. A larger mammal being bitten repeatedly is a whole different kettle of fish. That's predator behavior 101.

    Also canids in multiples of 2 or more tend to develop pack behaviors when loose and roaming. This can result in behavior those particular animals usually do not have. Oddly not much different than mob mentality in people, who get together in groups and turn into flaming idiots. The results are similar, the reasons behind them completely different though.

    Canines do not always see humans of all shapes and sizes as the alphas or in any way as authorative figures. Attributing our own sense of superiority onto any and all canines that we don't know personally rarely works.

    Problem canines such as these (first time offense or not, does not matter) should be dealt with immediately and according to local laws. Most states allow the right of a person to protect property and themselves from attack with legal deadly force. This works *if* the owner is capable of using a firearm on a moving target, not always possible. Catching/trapping on your own property is also legal, then report and/or turn in to shelter. Always keep a paper trail (call in all reportable instances) to protect yourselves.
    Poisoning is not legal when done off of your own property. In some instances and states it's not legal at all. The domino effect can be catastrophic to flora and fauna, not to mention the inherent cruelty. It is understandable that some people feel a need to protect their animals this way though.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct. 12, 2001
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    Center of the Universe
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    You can write a book about this and I still don't care.

    Dogs that will maul a mini horse, for any reason, are dangerous
    to mini horses, yes. Luckily enough it's usually quite easy to keep mini horses away from dogs and the reverse.

    It's actually people who cannot admit that dogs that do these things are normal dogs that are the usual cause of these problems. If you're convinced, for whatever reason, that Dogs Who Kill are rare and special dogs, instead of totally normal dogs, you're the one who doesn't make sure your fence is good and strong and it's YOUR dog who ends up mauling the horse. You're the one who thinks "Oh not my dog he would never hurt anything" so you don't train and socialize your dog and one day YOUR dog is the one who eats a cat. You have some fantasy notion that your dog will protect your family, and don't take steps to teach your dog about babies and don't supervise your dog, and it's YOUR dog who eats your baby or bites your toddler in the face. Because you are in denial of the reality of the dog.

    "Oh my dog is super friendly. I can let him run loose, he won't hurt anything." then you find out later he was packing up with two other "Friendly" dogs and going out and eating sheep and got shot. Whoops. If only you'd realized he was a Killer at Heart and kept him contained instead. Then he'd still be around to happily play with your toddler and Be Friendly.

    Persons who accept that ALL dogs are killers at heart train, socialize, and contain their dogs and very rarely do their dogs end up causing problems.

    I owned a killer dog- he was extremely dangerous. To squirrels, raccoons, marmots, and other furry animals; if I was stupid enough to let him get hold of a mini horse, bye-bye mini horse. He was a big love bug to people. Careful and gentle with children, very gentle with little dogs- he weighed in at 150 pounds, and his favorite playmate was a little minature pinscher. They would play very carefully together. Having him destroyed because he was "dangerous" to some species would have been the height of insanity.



  11. #31
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    Jun. 7, 2002
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    Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post


    Also canids in multiples of 2 or more tend to develop pack behaviors when loose and roaming. This can result in behavior those particular animals usually do not have. Oddly not much different than mob mentality in people, who get together in groups and turn into flaming idiots. The results are similar, the reasons behind them completely different though.
    Actually, the reasons behind them are very much the same. We aren't nearly as different from other mammals as many of us like to think we are.
    Last edited by JackieBlue; Dec. 30, 2011 at 07:29 PM.
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  12. #32
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Michigan
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    You shoot a dog actively chasing deer or livestock around here, DNR and AC aren't going to say anything (but likely neither will the dog's owners, for that matter. Dogs run loose, they disappear, happens all the time.)

    You go around throwing poison, you will be lucky if all you get is fined. And God help you if either something domestic and valuable or something wild and protected eats it instead.

    In any case, "small children" fall into the "prey animal" category, not "human" category. They sound like them and act like them, which is why dogs, coyotes, big cats, etc. will go after them when they would think twice or avoid something that looks and acts like a person. Which is why you don't leave small children loose and unattended in an area where any of those things are. And if children wander into the animal's area instead of the other way around, I say they asked for it. The only time I ever got bitten by a dog my mom yelled at me for getting in the poor thing's face. I got a tetanus shot and a lecture about what happens to stupid children who bother animals in the animals' own houses.



  13. #33
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    LOL...well, the more the braver theory works with people and canines. But mobs of humans don't become idjits due to protecting each other issues or instincts like canine packs can. We just lose our ever-loving minds in large groups.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  14. #34
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    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Alabama
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    I don't care about the generalities of why dogs pack up or attack. If these animals lived in my neighborhood I would never be able to rest if they were still in the neighborhood after this attack. There is no guarantee about what kind of prey they go after, but they now have a proven attack record. It is obvious the animals are not contained properly, and there is no 100% guarantee that they can't ever escape again. I would never trust them not to go after children or any other animal unlucky enough to run into them. It's not the dogs fault their owner is incompetent, and it's too bad the animals will have to suffer for lack of proper fencing, but the animals should be put down. And I guarantee you that the owner will get another set of similar dogs the next week.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  15. #35
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    Jun. 7, 2002
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    Virginia
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    I feel the same way about my neighbors, and most people for that matter, but sadly I can't do away with every little thing that makes me uncomfortable.
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  16. #36
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    May. 21, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    to mini horses, yes. Luckily enough it's usually quite easy to keep mini horses away from dogs and the reverse.

    It's actually people who cannot admit that dogs that do these things are normal dogs that are the usual cause of these problems. If you're convinced, for whatever reason, that Dogs Who Kill are rare and special dogs, instead of totally normal dogs, you're the one who doesn't make sure your fence is good and strong and it's YOUR dog who ends up mauling the horse. You're the one who thinks "Oh not my dog he would never hurt anything" so you don't train and socialize your dog and one day YOUR dog is the one who eats a cat. You have some fantasy notion that your dog will protect your family, and don't take steps to teach your dog about babies and don't supervise your dog, and it's YOUR dog who eats your baby or bites your toddler in the face. Because you are in denial of the reality of the dog.

    "Oh my dog is super friendly. I can let him run loose, he won't hurt anything." then you find out later he was packing up with two other "Friendly" dogs and going out and eating sheep and got shot. Whoops. If only you'd realized he was a Killer at Heart and kept him contained instead. Then he'd still be around to happily play with your toddler and Be Friendly.

    Persons who accept that ALL dogs are killers at heart train, socialize, and contain their dogs and very rarely do their dogs end up causing problems.

    I owned a killer dog- he was extremely dangerous. To squirrels, raccoons, marmots, and other furry animals; if I was stupid enough to let him get hold of a mini horse, bye-bye mini horse. He was a big love bug to people. Careful and gentle with children, very gentle with little dogs- he weighed in at 150 pounds, and his favorite playmate was a little minature pinscher. They would play very carefully together. Having him destroyed because he was "dangerous" to some species would have been the height of insanity.
    You can keep making the novel longer. It does not matter.

    You can put forth as many excuses or rationalizations as you like. If a dog mauls another domestic animal, he's going to get put down whether the owner likes it or not.



  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by mildot View Post
    If a dog mauls another domestic animal, he's going to get put down whether the owner likes it or not.
    Do you have a legal citation for that?

    Because here's a handy list of Texas animal laws: link

    And yes, anyone can kill a dog about to attack, attacking, or having just attacked livestock, but it doesn't say that all dogs that have attacked livestock will be killed.

    And TX HEALTH & S § 822.011 - 013 specifically says that dogs known to attack livestock are not permitted to run at large, so again... no mandatory death sentence.



  18. #38
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    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Alabama
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    It depends on the state and jurisdiction what happens to animals that attack other animals, or people. And it's not as if jurisdictions enforce laws on the books either.

    If you remember the case of the horsewoman in Colorado who was mauled to death a few years ago, then she was killed by two dogs who had horribly attacked a passing joggers a few months before. The county prosecutor said that he was not filing charges because there were no dangerous dog laws in the county, when it turns out that the Colorado state laws should have lead to the owners prosecution for the first attack. I also can't believe the number of people I know who have a dog bite in a public place, and don't even report it. The risk of rabies or other diseases would make me seek medical care, and that's a mandatory report situation I think.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  19. #39
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    Feb. 6, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somermist View Post
    Anyone who is advocating antifreeze or rat poison as a solution has never seen an animal die that way.

    No; they're just asshats.
    Plain and simple.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  20. #40
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    Feb. 27, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    There's no correlation between dogs chasing prey animals and dogs attacking little kids. Really. There isn't.
    I would beg to differ. A dog is a predator, and anything small enough for it to consider prey would qualify as such....especially if it runs and makes noise/shrieks, like small children may do at play. A running child can easily trigger the prey chase drive in a dog, especially a large dog bred for defense.



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