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  1. #21
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    You have to wonder what it takes to cause a non-profit organization, that has greatly benefitted financially, and has had a relationship that looks great from the outside (in terms of brand value, etc.) to walk away from this program.

    I mean...really? In this economy?

    How hard has it gotten to deal with the group that is ***DRESSAGE AT DEVON***?
    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASB Stars View Post
    All true- but, Jim Hall did get a great photo op out of it!!
    You mean he actually casts a reflection?



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASB Stars View Post
    Interesting.

    When these types of things happen, they generally end up being about the money- after the smoke clears. Thorncroft undoubtably needs all funding that they can wrangle- so, walking away would be interesting. OTOH, as mentioned, it is astounding the amount of effort they put in, every year, manning the booths, in order to make the $$ for food sales, etc.

    I understand that at least one person has been drawing a salary for the past couple of years, on the DAD end. I'm not sure how this would affect the situation, but, obviously, it draws down the pot.

    This has been an interesting trip- from seperating from DVCTA, to this. Hmmm...
    The show's manager drew a modest salary for years. Others had 'reimbursed expenses' - okee dokee then.



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by pluvinel View Post
    The "exempt purpose" of "New DaD" is:
    Would like the "new" DAD definition of 'majority'. I once sat in at an exec. comm. meeting years ago and heard the then chair utter the sentiment "if we give them (TEC) one dollar we've fulfilled our obligation." Put that in your pipe and smoke it all you cheerleaders of the old guard.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Honestly....one of the reasons for the split from DVCTA is that the running of DAD had gotten to be a HUGE responsibility and was taxing/overwhelming on a volunteer organization. Most large shows and HTs are now run professionally. Most have paid positions...hire secretaries and managers. There are huge issues with volunteer burn out.... and have been for a long time. I think even if DAD hadn't split from DVCTA...you would have certainly seen paid positions with certain management of that show contracted out to professionals.
    The 'real reason' for the split - hmmm, let me put this as succinctly as possible:

    1. New DVCTA president of '04 was stunned to discover the depth of liability to the club posed by DAD.
    2. The level of irresponsible behavior she felt was displayed by the principles posing liability to the parent organization.
    3. The overall lack of cooperation and lack of respect from the show committee to its parent organization's requests, however minor.
    4. The insistance that DAD exec. committee members serve terms on the DVCTA board simply because they 'contributed' the largest sum of cash.
    5. Were quite put out that an on-going, five year lawsuit/pissing contest was successfully mediated and settled in five days by the club president and legal counsel. Claimed they weren't informed - not true. Claimed club didn't have the 'right' to settle it - again, not true. Showed up at a club meeting with flaming torches in hand to protest - true but protest unsuccessful. Displayed their overall lack of concern for the club's welfare above their own.
    5. Ultimately waged an ugly campaign to oust the president after her first term to re-elect a past president more sympathetic and malleable to their needs/desires/childish tantrums/whims/egocentric visions of grandure and IMHO aid them in their long-time desire to split with the parent organization.
    I will never be of a mind that DVCTA was well served in the split, financially or otherwise. There were ways that could and would have been implemented to secure the shows ongoing and prosperous future, its beneficiaries long-term relationship, with significant long-term benefit to the parent organization if the president had ever had any real support from its members who, by and large, were found MIA and woke up wondering what happened, were sold beanstalk beans by a smooth talking few and will forever reap what they sewed. People get the governance they deserve.



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASB Stars View Post
    You have to wonder what it takes to cause a non-profit organization, that has greatly benefitted financially, and has had a relationship that looks great from the outside (in terms of brand value, etc.) to walk away from this program.

    I mean...really? In this economy?

    How hard has it gotten to deal with the group that is ***DRESSAGE AT DEVON***?
    I can't speak to the specifics of the arrangement between Thorncroft and DAD, but I can tell you my own organization's experience with being asked to be the "beneficiary" of a major AA-rated hunter/jumper horse show in our area.

    While the gross proceeds of the show we were asked to work with are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, the net benefit to the beneficiary ended up being $10-20K or LESS over the past several years. We declined the honor of being the "beneficiary" because in order to do so, we would have had to provide over 100 volunteers for 12 hours a day over the course of about 8 days. The logistics of finding, training, and managing that effort would have completely consumed our Special Events Coordinator for at least a month or more.

    In the end, the opportunity cost to our organization was just too high. With the time and effort we'd expend for a possible (and I really emphasize possible because the ultimate benefit was never guaranteed) profit of $10-20K, it just wasn't going to be worth the time. There are easier, less costly ways to raise that money.

    I will also say that the former beneficiary organization of this particular horse show essentially burned out and didn't feel they were getting enough profit for the amount of work they had to put into the horse show.

    I would imagine that as competitor expect a higher and higher level of professionalism in the management of the shows they attend (whether its dressage or hunter/jumper), the cost of providing that level of service has gone up. Which in turn eats into the proceeds to the "beneficiary". And at a certain point, that diminishing return makes "volunteering" for that horse show not so beneficial to the non-profit.

    Edited to add: All this is a long winded way of saying the split with Thorncroft may have nothing to do with nefarious intents of the DAD management. Its happening everywhere with all kinds of shows.
    Last edited by eponacelt; Dec. 23, 2011 at 08:24 AM. Reason: Added a more succinct thought!



  7. #27
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    Does anyone know how much money Thorncroft received each year? I cannot imagine a show of this magnitude reorganizing in less than 9 months. Does anyone know how many volunteers it takes to run the show?



  8. #28
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    I was under the impression that the **donation** to Thorncroft was in the 75K range, each year...anyone else know? My information would be subject to my poor recollection, and is undoubtably dated, as well.

    I have heard several things from key volunteers in the past several years- some opted out, because they got blamed for crap that wasn't their problem, or simply got tired of dealing with the nuclear group. Some stay involved, because of the **mission**, and probably their conception of cache...and many have just had enough, and walked away.

    I was never involved, except as a sponsor.

    I do think that the volunteer issue is key. Other than bringing in paying cncerns to do the midway food etc., which could be problematic as DAD apparently has raised the fees over the past years, I don't know how you are even going to deal with the concession issues. 'Tis the season to have a big problem, apparently!
    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmblooded707 View Post
    The 'real reason' for the split - hmmm, let me put this as succinctly as possible:

    1. New DVCTA president of '04 was stunned to discover the depth of liability to the club posed by DAD.
    2. The level of irresponsible behavior she felt was displayed by the principles posing liability to the parent organization.
    3. The overall lack of cooperation and lack of respect from the show committee to its parent organization's requests, however minor.
    4. The insistance that DAD exec. committee members serve terms on the DVCTA board simply because they 'contributed' the largest sum of cash.
    5. Were quite put out that an on-going, five year lawsuit/pissing contest was successfully mediated and settled in five days by the club president and legal counsel. Claimed they weren't informed - not true. Claimed club didn't have the 'right' to settle it - again, not true. Showed up at a club meeting with flaming torches in hand to protest - true but protest unsuccessful. Displayed their overall lack of concern for the club's welfare above their own.
    5. Ultimately waged an ugly campaign to oust the president after her first term to re-elect a past president more sympathetic and malleable to their needs/desires/childish tantrums/whims/egocentric visions of grandure and IMHO aid them in their long-time desire to split with the parent organization.
    I will never be of a mind that DVCTA was well served in the split, financially or otherwise. There were ways that could and would have been implemented to secure the shows ongoing and prosperous future, its beneficiaries long-term relationship, with significant long-term benefit to the parent organization if the president had ever had any real support from its members who, by and large, were found MIA and woke up wondering what happened, were sold beanstalk beans by a smooth talking few and will forever reap what they sewed. People get the governance they deserve.
    This matches my recollection-- and, I agree completely with your summation!
    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASB Stars View Post
    PT- thanks for that- when DAD was under the auspices of DVCTA, I was under the impression rightly or wrongly- that no one pulled a salary. That all changed after **they** took control.

    I recall one year, when there was some discussion about the proceeds being divided in some fashion between more than one beneficiary. I believe that Thorncroft was a bit concerned about that-- and, rightfully so.

    Fascinating...carry on!
    The show mgr, the breed show secretary, the performance secretary, the hospitality person in the main comm stand all took salaries during the DVCTA years. Others on the exec comm received perks & freebies. I speak from 13yrs experience during the Bonk/Nicholson DVCTA yrs.



  11. #31
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    The nuclear grp was indeed an issue which sent many of the old time members fleeing the Dixon Oval, never to return. Accountabilty was the issue. The exec board wanted to spend like drunken sailors but the finance people wanted accountability & reciepts. One of my favorites was the $1800 tee shirts that never appeared, yet an exec member wanted reimbursement. Power, greed, the desire to be important, extra marital flings...all factors which have contributed to their current slippery slope situtation.

    If I remember correctly, the performance show sec rec'd reimbursement for her expenses (wink-wink).



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmblooded707 View Post
    .....
    5. Were quite put out that an on-going, five year lawsuit/pissing contest was successfully mediated and settled in five days by the club president and legal counsel. Claimed they weren't informed - not true. Claimed club didn't have the 'right' to settle it - again, not true. Showed up at a club meeting with flaming torches in hand to protest - true but protest unsuccessful. Displayed their overall lack of concern for the club's welfare above their own.
    .......
    Do say more......What was the suit based on?

    I know one member who requested to see the club's books (as was her legal right under laws of PA incorporation) and was told no, she could not see the books.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by wineberrywillie View Post
    If I remember correctly, the performance show sec rec'd reimbursement for her expenses (wink-wink).
    Curious but what's so odd about that?
    In H J shows secretaries are paid show employees. Because of the myriad of USEF regulations you want a professional secretary to be handling those details.
    And if I recall this correctly, Dressage show secretary have to have some qualifications to be a secretary at Level 3 and up dressage competitions.

    If you try and operate with an untrained, volunteer secretary the potential USEF fines could end up to be more than the cost of hiring professional staff.
    Expenses just as hotel/motel travel expenses are routinely paid.



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    Curious but what's so odd about that?
    In H J shows secretaries are paid show employees. Because of the myriad of USEF regulations you want a professional secretary to be handling those details.
    And if I recall this correctly, Dressage show secretary have to have some qualifications to be a secretary at Level 3 and up dressage competitions.

    If you try and operate with an untrained, volunteer secretary the potential USEF fines could end up to be more than the cost of hiring professional staff.
    Expenses just as hotel/motel travel expenses are routinely paid.
    It's not odd but there was a poster who didn't think anyone was paid. I'm sure once they went to professional mgmt, the salaries increased.



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pluvinel View Post
    Do say more......What was the suit based on?

    I know one member who requested to see the club's books (as was her legal right under laws of PA incorporation) and was told no, she could not see the books.
    Essentially breach of contract.

    Confidentiality clause in place re/settlement so can say no more.



  16. #36
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    "People get the governance they deserve."

    Completely OFF-TOPIC, but ... Oh dear lord, is THAT ever a statement deserving of a great deal of contemplation in these times.

    Carol
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pluvinel View Post
    Do say more......What was the suit based on?

    I know one member who requested to see the club's books (as was her legal right under laws of PA incorporation) and was told no, she could not see the books.
    DAD hired a "consultant" to bring in sponsorship monies. There was a disagreement about whether or not he should have been paid for certain sponsorships. He got cranky. Initially, DAD did not take him at all seriously, and had an attorney who was essentially a "friend to DAD" helping them handle it- gratis. Then, they realized that they were in this a bit too deep-- but, still did not report back in a transparent way to the "Mother Ship"- DVCTA.

    DVCTA was bearing a huge amount of liability for decisions made outside of their actual control. Of course, DAD's attitude was "how dare you question our ability to make these decisions!". This was during the Dr. Jim Hall era.

    I did know that the breed show secretary, the performance show secretary and the show manager were all compensated- but, I did not realize that they drew salaries- which I would define as being paid year round- not just during the show, and the immediate time prior, in preparation.

    I did hear, true or not, that the Breed Show Chair's USDF Convention trip had been covered by the show, but, as stated, I am not sure how true all of that is. Of course, I do tend to believe it.
    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmblooded707 View Post
    You mean he actually casts a reflection?
    Well, I DID see the picture, and it DID look like him...but I SO get your point!
    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/



  19. #39
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    I do remember when they canned a former Chair of DAD, because he allegedly charged some porn on the DAD credit card. Yes, really.

    Now, they do not have to worry about that issue, because the fox is IN the hen house!
    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASB Stars View Post
    I do remember when they canned a former Chair of DAD, because he allegedly charged some porn on the DAD credit card. Yes, really.

    Now, they do not have to worry about that issue, because the fox is IN the hen house!
    Yes, this is true of the former chair. In his defense, he ran an excellent show & he was a great leader for the team. He was fiscally responsible & fair. Mr. Hall was his side kick & driver at the time but elevated to chair because he had the correct male equipment to herd the hens.



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