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  1. #1
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    Default DressageToday Nov 2011

    The article Transitions and Half Halts.

    photos, page 58.

    What do you think of the rider position in these photos?

    How about the rising trot photo on page 57?



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    The article Transitions and Half Halts.

    photos, page 58.

    What do you think of the rider position in these photos?

    How about the rising trot photo on page 57?
    There is more than one picture on each page, so maybe you should clarify.

    I have ridden in a clinic with Susanne von Dietze. It is one of her methods (and a really effective one) to have the rider exaggerate and then minimize to find the proper position. Hence the rider posting super low and then standing up in the stirrups, so that the rider finds the balance somewhere in the middle.
    2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

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  3. #3
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    Crotch seat? Looks like what I'm trying not to do, as it is less effective and blocks my horse who already has tenseness issues without me adding to them...
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



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    I'm not expert enough to be able to definitely say, but it appears to me as if the rider in both pictures has a hollow back. The top photo can be misconstrued because there's a yellow arrow next to her back. The bottom picture, though, looks as if her pelvis is rocked forward.
    But if you put a straight edge on the picture, it appears there's a straight line from the rider's ear, hip and just slightly ahead of her heel.

    I'd appreciate it if someone would correct me, if I'm wrong. I'm working very hard on my seat and have troubles with the trot.
    The best thing to do on a golf course is a GALLOP!



  5. #5
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    The bottom photo on p58, appears to be quite a hollow back. Seat bones 'pointing' backwards toward hocks. 'Neutral spine' it ain't.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    The bottom photo on p58, appears to be quite a hollow back. Seat bones 'pointing' backwards toward hocks. 'Neutral spine' it ain't.
    I am glad you responded. I instantly thought that, but it's the biggest issue I am working on right now so I probably see places it isn't a problem, too. Since I'm trying to learn, I was wondering if it was something else obvious and major that I just didn't know enough to notice!
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by netg View Post
    I am glad you responded. I instantly thought that, but it's the biggest issue I am working on right now so I probably see places it isn't a problem, too. Since I'm trying to learn, I was wondering if it was something else obvious and major that I just didn't know enough to notice!
    Well there have been many interesting discussions on seat, position, and mechanics here. So I am hoping to hear some other opinions. Is there anyone who thinks the photo shows the kind of mechanics riders should strive for?



  8. #8
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    As far as I can tell, that rider is very strong, elegant, and skilled. I would be ecstatic if I could be remotely close to her.

    I don't believe she has hollow back either. If she does, it is very slight. I think this is one confusion regarding hollow backs. A straight back actually has a slight S curve. That is the natural curve of human spine. One thing that is interesting is, when you really engage your core to grow really tall, you actualy accentute that curve, but that curve is different frm the curve from the hollow back. I think that is why so many riders get hollow back to try to imitate that very elegant, tall appearance. They aren't strong enough to get that look. They only succeed in the hollow back.

    The trot on page 57 is to show the "range" of motion a posting trot can haveo: Can you post a very minumum trot (essentially a sitting trot)? Can you allow your pelvis to swing to its maximum (essentially standing with slight bend of knee)? It really isn't as easy as it looks. To be able to stand like that, you need to have good alignment, good balance, without locking any of your joints. You will find your ankles needs to be flexible to absorbe the motions (there will be a light "bounce" feel of your ankle). When you have a horse that moves reallly big, sometimes you do need to swing your pelvis that much.

    That article is to instruct riders how to improve their own riding and balance, not to show how technically correct the demonstration rider is, or even what a "perfect" position is. She isn't perfect,that is for sure - but who is?

    I read that article with acute interest - actually read it a few times. One thing that especially interested me was the suggestion of posting trot to canter, which incidentally was something I have been doing. Up till this year, I was unable to sit my horse's big trot prior to canter. If I tried, I would end up bouncing around on his back, and upsetting his as well as my own balance. What I found that worked for me was, I post the trot, give canter cue at the up phase, and then sit the very first canter stride. It works really well for me. It kept both of us happy.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post

    The trot on page 57 is to show the "range" of motion a posting trot can haveo: Can you post a very minumum trot (essentially a sitting trot)? Can you allow your pelvis to swing to its maximum (essentially standing with slight bend of knee)? It really isn't as easy as it looks. To be able to stand like that, you need to have good alignment, good balance, without locking any of your joints. You will find your ankles needs to be flexible to absorbe the motions (there will be a light "bounce" feel of your ankle). When you have a horse that moves reallly big, sometimes you do need to swing your pelvis that much.
    I am not questioning the opening of the pelvis/hip angle so much as the straightness of the knee angle.

    So you believe that the knee should be that straight?



  10. #10
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    You mean, the picture where she was standing up? If yes, then the answer is, maybe...

    Should you ride like that normally? Hell no. Should you post that big sometimes? Yeah maybe... Should you try it, if not for anything, for educational purpose? Definitely yes. Many times I use it during warmup to help my heels to drop and legs to go longer.

    If you watch closely, her knees are slightly bent and there is visible weight on the heels. That is a power position. What you don't want is locked knees(or ankles, or anything); and what you especially don't want is weight on the toes. What many people get themselves into pickle is if they locked their knees, and stand on their tip toes. Now, that, will be bad. The horse tumbles one tiny step, and you will end up on your nose.

    In fact, that is one good exercise to see how secure you can be in the saddle. I will bet that many people aren't strong enough to maintain that kind of position for long. Many will either fall backward, or fall on their faces. You need a strong core, while allow every joint to flex properly.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    You mean, the picture where she was standing up? If yes, then the answer is, maybe...

    Should you ride like that normally? Hell no. Should you post that big sometimes? Yeah maybe... Should you try it, if not for anything, for educational purpose? Definitely yes. Many times I use it during warmup to help my heels to drop and legs to go longer.
    I don't have the magazine in front of me at the moment, but I think the point was to practice posting very high and then very low to find the ideal middle ground.

    The rider is Felicitas von Neuman-Cosell, who is a cousin of Susanne von Dietze. There are tons of Google images of her riding if you want to see her in non-demo rider mode.

    Also, it's not a hollow back. That is her conformation.
    2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

    A helmet saved my life.



  12. #12
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    Ah thanks. I will google some when I get home. They (my work) blocked all YoTube. sigh.

    Do you have the book mentioned in DT? I think it's called "Transitions and Half Halts"? Do you like it, or books written by the same author? The piece I read on DT intrigued me greatly. I'm wondering whether it's worth purchasing it.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    Ah thanks. I will google some when I get home. They (my work) blocked all YoTube. sigh.

    Do you have the book mentioned in DT? I think it's called "Transitions and Half Halts"? Do you like it, or books written by the same author? The piece I read on DT intrigued me greatly. I'm wondering whether it's worth purchasing it.
    Gotta love a horse book. I'll buy almost any horse book whether I 'agree' with it or not.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    If you watch closely, her knees are slightly bent and there is visible weight on the heels. That is a power position. What you don't want is locked knees(or ankles, or anything); and what you especially don't want is weight on the toes. What many people get themselves into pickle is if they locked their knees, and stand on their tip toes. Now, that, will be bad. The horse tumbles one tiny step, and you will end up on your nose.
    Not sure how you can conclude 'weight in the heels' (in rising photo) when the heel of the boot is above the stirrup tread.

    "Slightly bent" indeed (in rising trot photo.) About how much angle do you think you see in the 'slightly bent' knee? Who's got a protractor handy?

    Again, I am not suggesting that rising high is bad. But the virtually straight knee?



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    Ah thanks. I will google some when I get home. They (my work) blocked all YoTube. sigh.

    Do you have the book mentioned in DT? I think it's called "Transitions and Half Halts"? Do you like it, or books written by the same author? The piece I read on DT intrigued me greatly. I'm wondering whether it's worth purchasing it.
    I have her first book, Balance in Movement, as well as the DVD which is great for trainers because it demonstrates many exercises riders can do on and off the lunge line to improve their seat. Her latest is Rider and Horse, Back to Back and the DT article is an exerpt from it.

    Look up her bio--it's fascinating.
    Last edited by TheHorseProblem; Dec. 3, 2011 at 11:37 AM.
    2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

    A helmet saved my life.



  16. #16
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    Sorry IZ. If you can't see the weight in the heels, can't differentiate a locked knees or a slightly bent knees, and you aren't interested in a open minded discussion, I don't know what to tell you.

    Your original post suggested you wanted a discussion, and was desiring to hear other's opinions. I didn't realize that wasn't your intention. I didn't realize you wanted a chorus to trash that rider.

    I myself am not interested in discussing how to pick at something out of nothing; I'm more interested in what I can learn.

    So, humbly bowed out.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Not sure how you can conclude 'weight in the heels' (in rising photo) when the heel of the boot is above the stirrup tread.

    "Slightly bent" indeed (in rising trot photo.) About how much angle do you think you see in the 'slightly bent' knee? Who's got a protractor handy?

    Again, I am not suggesting that rising high is bad. But the virtually straight knee?
    Maybe look through other pages of some back issues of DT for comparison. Felicitas von Neuman-Cosel is DT's technical consultant, so I think she knows what she's doing.
    2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

    A helmet saved my life.



  18. #18
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    IMHO, the low rising trot photo on page 57, the heel is slightly above the stirrup tread. I would guess that the stirrups here a slightly too long. It may be that the rider has a very long thigh and it's difficult to find a saddle that will accommodate that.

    The second photo of the high rising trot, the leg is awfully straight. Again, I think the stirrup leather is a bit too long. However, I think I've done that myself trying to stand in the stirrups. I wasn't trying to post that high; I was standing in the stirrups. I wouldn't think that would be the ideal to strive for. But as an exercise in trying to find a middle ground, I'm not against it.

    In the top photo on page 58, the rider's shoulders are behind the vertical and behind her hips. IMHO, I think she's hollow in the back because her shoulders are behind her hips. I don't know what she's doing or trying to do here since the caption doesn't address that. The horse appears to be trotting but I don't know if the rider is supposed to be sitting the trot or that's just the sitting phase of a rising trot. The shoulders are still behind the hips, though, and that makes me wonder if she's trying to drive the horse forward.

    In the lower photo on page 58, the rider does appear to have a hollowed back with the pelvis tipped forward. However, the angle of the photo is a bit odd and the rider's shirt is billowing out behind, so that accentuates the impression. The heel has been forced downward quite a bit, too. Perhaps this is what happens when this rider "sits deepest" in the saddle in this phase of the canter.

    I get the impression of lack of lower-belly core control in these two photos and I'd prefer to see more rib-hip connection.

    On the other hand, she's probably a far better rider than I am!
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