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  1. #61
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    Mar. 27, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by flutie1 View Post
    Your argument makes sense, but desn't present the whole picture. The person going to Boyd's possibly has no desire or aptitude to go to college, med school whatever. Perhaps the horse industry is what they aspire to. If so, why not go where they can get a great education - or if anything, they can find that it isn't for them after all? The hours a WS keeps are not unlike those kept by anyone doing horses for a living.
    Even if this is the case, the entire nature of the position presented is extraordinarily limiting except to those who are willing to accumulate debt all for three whole months of education or are very well supported back home. The fact is that many young riders who are up and coming do not need to slave for Boyd in order to have access to that caliber of training- Their parents can just pay for it. The people who want to succeed and become good trainers and riders who cannot afford that training must become working students, and cannot do so when such educations fetch a premium price for the benefit of the trainer. The whole thing, in my opinion, just has the distinct feeling of greed about it. It appears that Boyd is more willing to capitalize on his international acclaim to take advantage of young, aspiring eventers than offer a fair deal in the name of passing the good deeds he has received on, thereby benefitting the sport as a whole a few years down the line.
    And this is the story of your red right ankle.



  2. #62
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    Jan. 19, 2005
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    PA
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    Give me a break. If you can't "afford" to be a working student there are other ways to gain an education. You Work at a barn for a good trainer. You probably should Not have your own horse anyway Etc. this is just one opportunity for some limited pool of people. Life isn't fair. Deal with it.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  3. #63
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    Mar. 27, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisu27 View Post
    Do all of you bashing and "loosing" (lose not loose people!!) respect for Boyd think this is exclusive to his WS program? Sounds pretty similar to most BNRs to me.

    Do you pay for an education? Does your school cover your accommodations? Food? Transportation? How is this any different?

    The negative comments all stink of sour grapes, laziness and constant excuses to me.
    You are right- This is not an issue specific to this WSP specifically, but one that plagues the industry as a whole. Should something be done about this? I certainly think so. While the posts of those against the "working student position" that Boyd is offering may stink of sour grapes, I see no clearly written laziness anywhere. Who, may I ask, has said "I don't feel like working to achieve my goals"? I think overwhelmingly people are saying that it has been made increasingly harder to work toward the status of professional in the horse industry because of positions favoring those who have money. While our posts may stink of sour grapes, yours and others like it stink of a blindness toward obvious greed and the inability to direct your objectivity where it would best serve to be directed.
    And this is the story of your red right ankle.



  4. #64
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    Feb. 22, 2000
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    passepartout
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    The numbers are skewed in Boyd's favour. That doesn't change whether you think of this as a great opportunity or not.

    The comments on Boyd's blog are a bit strange -- all that stuff about 'kids today!' and 'whining!' and 'young people don't want to work!'. The reality is that unless your parents are footing all or some of your bills, working life -- and life in general -- is very difficult for most young people. It's not a fear of working hard that keeps most people from taking considerable financial and career risks -- it's what happens when it doesn't all go to plan and you're injured or broke or unable to find your next job.

    Also, does Boyd pay workman's comp? What happens if you get hurt on the job?



  5. #65
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    Jul. 19, 2003
    Location
    Aiken SC
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    556

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    I have a hard time believing that Boyd only makes $300 on a training horse..........if it costs him $1500 a month to keep one, and his training board is $1800, then that's the deal of the century, to get 20 rides a month on your horse by Boyd Martin, that's only $15 a ride........... And I have some ocean front property in AZ if anyone is interested.



  6. #66
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    Mar. 27, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinedriver View Post
    I have a hard time believing that Boyd only makes $300 on a training horse..........if it costs him $1500 a month to keep one, and his training board is $1800, then that's the deal of the century, to get 20 rides a month on your horse by Boyd Martin, that's only $15 a ride........... And I have some ocean front property in AZ if anyone is interested.
    You are right.. That doesn't really add up.
    And this is the story of your red right ankle.



  7. #67
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    Oct. 4, 2008
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    1,143

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    Quote Originally Posted by catosis View Post
    You are right- This is not an issue specific to this WSP specifically, but one that plagues the industry as a whole. Should something be done about this? I certainly think so. While the posts of those against the "working student position" that Boyd is offering may stink of sour grapes, I see no clearly written laziness anywhere. Who, may I ask, has said "I don't feel like working to achieve my goals"? I think overwhelmingly people are saying that it has been made increasingly harder to work toward the status of professional in the horse industry because of positions favoring those who have money. While our posts may stink of sour grapes, yours and others like it stink of a blindness toward obvious greed and the inability to direct your objectivity where it would best serve to be directed.
    I like this post, because it states the obvious. If you have the money to do this, you probably are better off being a client. It might be less expensive in the long run, and your lessonsnWILL happen. Nothing about Boyd, he may very well give the lessons, but many don't. And if they do, they are short, rushed, and often interrupted by other stuff. Talking from expierance.

    If you are not blessed with an open checkbook, then this is not that obtainable. I know MANY BNT's, this is the first I have heard of asking for money for board, or not having a place for them to stay.

    Boyd has been graced with many gifts this past year, because of his tragedies. I would have liked to see some of that goodwill paid forward. I guess someone may go for this... It's not in our realm of doable. I wish him much luck! We are offering full board, training, place to stay, free food, paid showing, and lots of riding, and have had very few qualified people, and we live in Ocala... Obviously we don't have his resume but still, people are just not out there like they use to be!



  8. #68

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    We run a farm. A big one by all accounts and have between 6 and 10 full time legal all white all American male employees.

    Anyway,for the most part (80-99%) of all employees are here just for the check.Nothing more or less.

    Every now and then we get someone who wants to farm for real.Not part time or just playing but wants to really farm the "modern" way.

    Now this employee is different that the regular "grunt" employee as we spend a LOT of time explaining "why" something has to be done.

    It's not just "feed those cows this hay" for the one that wants to learn, it's "feed the cows this hay because ...<insert>. Now we don't get paid any extra for what we know about "why" or telling him "why"

    WE must assume a teachers position...and that is not only a pain in my butt,it is time consuming and repetitive and for the most part involves me doing kindergarten stuff with grown men...

    why an I having to tell a grown damned man about CP requirement levels in yearling cattle? what ding dong 7th grader does not know that already.......?????


    um that would be one not raised in our world,that's who. And while I can't charge them extra by gosh most times I which I could.

    Tamara
    Last edited by Tamara in TN; Nov. 24, 2011 at 08:44 PM.
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  9. #69
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    Mar. 27, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by gold2012 View Post
    I like this post, because it states the obvious. If you have the money to do this, you probably are better off being a client. It might be less expensive in the long run, and your lessonsnWILL happen. Nothing about Boyd, he may very well give the lessons, but many don't. And if they do, they are short, rushed, and often interrupted by other stuff. Talking from experience.

    If you are not blessed with an open checkbook, then this is not that obtainable. I know MANY BNT's, this is the first I have heard of asking for money for board, or not having a place for them to stay.

    Boyd has been graced with many gifts this past year, because of his tragedies. I would have liked to see some of that goodwill paid forward. I guess someone may go for this... It's not in our realm of doable. I wish him much luck! We are offering full board, training, place to stay, free food, paid showing, and lots of riding, and have had very few qualified people, and we live in Ocala... Obviously we don't have his resume but still, people are just not out there like they use to be!
    Ok, last post, I promise! I have unfortunately hijacked this thread. One of the issues that I have personally had in the search for a working student position is that people are looking for someone they don't have to invest any "job training" in- They want someone who already knows how to break the babies, clip and braid for shows, AND ride like a pro. Now, this is just not realistic: I am that horse obsessed suburban girl who is always riding whatever she can get her hands on once a week, if that. No one has taken the time to teach me everything there is to know about training and horse care, and that is part of the reason why I want to find a good WSP. I want to learn, and trust me, I am a quick learner when taught properly and thoroughly the first time, but no one has bothered to invest the amount of time and energy it would require for me to know everything any Olympic groom worth their salt knows already. So, gold2012, if you want a hard working, enthusiastic, tragically under qualified working student for the summer, feel free to PM me.
    And this is the story of your red right ankle.



  10. #70
    Join Date
    Mar. 18, 2011
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    New Jersey
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    66

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    Quote Originally Posted by equinedriver View Post
    I have a hard time believing that Boyd only makes $300 on a training horse..........if it costs him $1500 a month to keep one, and his training board is $1800, then that's the deal of the century, to get 20 rides a month on your horse by Boyd Martin, that's only $15 a ride........... And I have some ocean front property in AZ if anyone is interested.
    My trainer usually goes to Aiken, and the barn he usually boards at is possibly the nicest one down there - and board is $1100 a month. That is like $37 a day. Boyd's may be roughly equivalent - but that $50 a day doesn't seem right. My trainer is not quite so BNT as Boyd, but board is board, and training fees are another game.



  11. #71
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    Mar. 18, 2011
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    New Jersey
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    To be fair, there are people who pay far more for a useless Equine Science degree than they would for a few months at Boyd's - the time at Boyd's I think would honestly be more valuable, and a lot cheaper than four years. But you can't take out federal loans for Boyd's.

    Also, I know someone who was a working student for Boyd - didn't regret the experience, but also didn't get to go to the shows at all - was at the farm the whole time - because people higher up on the totem pole went to shows.



  12. #72
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    Sep. 14, 2005
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    central NJ
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    605

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    Quote Originally Posted by catosis View Post
    Ok, last post, I promise! I have unfortunately hijacked this thread. One of the issues that I have personally had in the search for a working student position is that people are looking for someone they don't have to invest any "job training" in- They want someone who already knows how to break the babies, clip and braid for shows, AND ride like a pro. Now, this is just not realistic: I am that horse obsessed suburban girl who is always riding whatever she can get her hands on once a week, if that. No one has taken the time to teach me everything there is to know about training and horse care, and that is part of the reason why I want to find a good WSP. I want to learn, and trust me, I am a quick learner when taught properly and thoroughly the first time, but no one has bothered to invest the amount of time and energy it would require for me to know everything any Olympic groom worth their salt knows already. So, gold2012, if you want a hard working, enthusiastic, tragically under qualified working student for the summer, feel free to PM me.
    Yup... I was passed over for several positions because I had not yet competed at Prelim or higher (or 3rd Level, for dressage). Even for actual jobs with little to no riding involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by delusions of grandeur View Post
    Also, I know someone who was a working student for Boyd - didn't regret the experience, but also didn't get to go to the shows at all - was at the farm the whole time - because people higher up on the totem pole went to shows.
    This was my experience under a different trainer. By the end of my term I was essentially playing barn manager (for all the pay of a WS!) because I was not gearing up for NAYRCs like the others. Wouldn't have minded if we had called a spade a spade, but that wasn't quite the case.


    With some of the younger trainers, who perhaps have eyes on The Team but are not quite established yet, a WSP sort of goes both ways... What's in it for them? A YR with a nice horse (or deep pockets) is potentially another tally to their list of "success" stories. Someone taking a gap-year to learn and ride before going back to college or moving on to another part of the industry, might not be worth the investment of time and lessons. Based on my observations, anyway, so take that for what you paid for it!
    Member of the Standardbreds with Saddles Clique!
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  13. #73
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    Mar. 28, 2011
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    235

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    I've had 2 working student positions. Mixed view on both. My thought is, if you're hellbent on doing one, go ahead. Just be wary. I've been taken advantage of in various ways. I learned a lot, but did more grunt work than was expected, didn't get to groom at all the big events as expected, and had to choose sparingly when I ran my horses so as to save money.

    A) worked for an Olympic trainer who ran a business with 20-30 horses. My horse lived for free, obviously lessons and coaching were free. I paid .50/mile for trailering. I paid $100/month for rent. BUT the hours were very unpredictable. I was at the barn at 5, had an hour for lunch, and some days didn't leave until after 10, and I maybe only got 4 of the 6 guarantee in a good week.

    B) worked for a different USET member who ran a small business. I paid $400/month board in Aiken and $800 in VA, and $250/month for rent, and eventually moved into the house with she and her husband and lived for free. I ALWAYS had 6 lessons a week, and worked 7-noon then 2-6, some Saturdays and all Sundays off.



  14. #74
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    Jan. 10, 2011
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    6

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    It's ludicrous to try to quantify three months with Boyd Martin in columns of $$/day. What the right student, with or without a horse, could learn about horsemanship and the horse business is fantastic. If the requirements don't fit your current situation, that's unfortunate...but there are things one can do to adapt. If one can't adapt in time to take advantage of this particular opportunity, don't apply. Your turn will come another day. But please don't denigrate the options or opportunities of someone else who is in a position to take advantage of it. Everything is what we make it. Good luck!



  15. #75
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    Jun. 9, 2005
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    Unionville, PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by judybigredpony View Post
    I would rather wait to actually hear from one of his former WS......think its gonna be a long wait....
    Well, I know his Aiken WS from 2010 is still with him as a paid assistant rider. But I don't think she posts here.
    Delaware Park Canter Volunteer
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  16. #76
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    Feb. 10, 2006
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    Middle of Nowhere, take a right, FL
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    I don't think one can compare a WS position with a paid for education. For one thing you are not expected to clean the dorms and classrooms, work in the kitchen, do the dishes and fit in classwork afterwards. IF the teacher isn't busy. A degree or certificate course is tailored for the student and at the end they walk out with actual degrees to back up their knowledge. Yes you pay for it but you are getting more bang for your buck.

    And as someone pointed out you can't get a pell grant as a WS!

    But you can certainly learn a lot from the right individual and the right position. I personally (were I a BNT) would rather have paid and trained barn staff who want jobs for more than a few months. I would certainly expect WS to pitch in but the only reason I'd HAVE WS is to give a little back and help nurture the next generation. Otherwise they may as well pay for lessons and get out of your hair when they are done!

    I would at least provide them a room or a trailer/camper to live in for free.

    I would think a paddock with a shelter in it would be better to offer WS horses than a stall. Better for the horse too as he probably won't get ridden very much! 8-D

    ETA: They still have fire relief donation buttons up? No insurance?
    Last edited by summerhorse; Nov. 24, 2011 at 10:02 PM.
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

    Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.



  17. #77
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    Oct. 14, 2000
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    Now In the Sandhills, NC mostly
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    Pretty sure Jim Graham has charged for working students for quite a while, hasn't he?

    It sounds a bit steep, but the education you'd be getting is pretty phenomenal.



  18. #78
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    May. 16, 2003
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    for those doing the math and thinking in terms of min wage, don't forget that pay is at time and a half for all hours over 40 per week. Not saying pro or con re the position - it really doesn't bother me.



  19. #79
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    Jan. 10, 2007
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    too far from the barn
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    Pay is not at time and a half if you are salaried. When I worked for my start up company, making very little and working 100 hours per week, there was no overtime pay. Now that I am faculty and well compensated, I have still worked 50-60 hours per week for the past 15 years with no overtime pay. So that is not really true.
    OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!



  20. #80
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    Oct. 2, 1999
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    Mendocino County, CA: Turkey Vulture HQ
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    Quote Originally Posted by catosis View Post
    Ok, last post, I promise! I have unfortunately hijacked this thread. One of the issues that I have personally had in the search for a working student position is that people are looking for someone they don't have to invest any "job training" in- They want someone who already knows how to break the babies, clip and braid for shows, AND ride like a pro. Now, this is just not realistic: I am that horse obsessed suburban girl who is always riding whatever she can get her hands on once a week, if that. No one has taken the time to teach me everything there is to know about training and horse care, and that is part of the reason why I want to find a good WSP. I want to learn, and trust me, I am a quick learner when taught properly and thoroughly the first time, but no one has bothered to invest the amount of time and energy it would require for me to know everything any Olympic groom worth their salt knows already. So, gold2012, if you want a hard working, enthusiastic, tragically under qualified working student for the summer, feel free to PM me.
    I'm sure there are some great positions for you, catosis. But not in an Olympic barn. Look for a solid local trainer, ideally one with a lesson program or a sales barn, or even a summer camp, and I bet you can find someone that will give you that foundation.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



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