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  1. #181
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    Sep. 26, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    Well, I worked my a$$ off through grad school as a research and teaching assistant... probably amounting to well less than minimum wage... and I was still responsible for tuition etc. I have no problem with this program. And if you really look at it from a barter standpoint, what is the cost of a private lesson with Boyd? How does that translate to hours worked per day? And in addition to the lessons, one gets informal lessons and gets to audit training sessions in exchange.

    Do the math. It's a great deal. I would take it in a heartbeat if I could borrow, beg, steal, and wasn't this old!
    In most cases if you work hard in grad school, pass qualifying exams (if applicable), then you get a degree and have something to show for it at the end. That isn't always the case with working student positions. Following what JanWeber said, the trick is making sure you get the lessons and other experience that is supposed to come with the position.



  2. #182
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    May. 15, 2012
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    Call me naïve but it kind if irritates me how boyd puts this position a pedastool. Obviously it's tough work, obviously it's long hours, and obviously it's prestigious to be there! Anyone with a brain should be able to realize a WS position is a PRIVILEGE and HARD WORK.

    I have not read the comments yet but my opinion of having to pay is simple.. I would personally not do it because honestly speaking I don't have 2k a month just sitting around to pay boar and lessons but there are PLENTY of top level riders that offer situations of not having to pay hairs and lessons ect. So to all the people whining...quit it and get over it. Boyd and whoever else does it aren't goin. To change the way they offer stuff just evacuee a few people complain. I think it's a little absurd that "we" would PAY to HELP them out but such is life and il let over it.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #183
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    Aug. 2, 2001
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    Ft Worth, TX, USA
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    I'm in the "I believe he was serious" camp. I've not applied for a job in years, but I don't remember seeing any help wanted ads with such a specific reference to a social media. Usually they're a little more vague. Along the lines of - we expect you to conduct yourself in a professional manner on, and off, the job/field/etc. The only instance I personally know of that comes close is someone I know in the Air Force. They made her delete her facebook account.
    "Everyone will start to cheer, when you put on your sailin shoes"-Lowell George

    What's the status on Tuco?


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  4. #184
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    Jan. 26, 2001
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    NC
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    Oh, come on. Little touchy, are we?
    I have read enough of Boyd's comments to think that he has a good sense of humor.
    Somebody is always offended at something. After all, how many people did we all "unfriend" during that damn election?


    7 members found this post helpful.

  5. #185
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2012
    Posts
    215

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    I usually enjoy a bit of cheeky humor, but I don't have the luxury of reading every thread on COTH, so I was left a little ??? by his comment re: the WS position. If I hadn't been clued in, that would have seriously turned me off from ever supporting Boyd again. Actually, I'm not sure that I will in the future, but that remains to be seen. <shrug> I agree that I would have preferred he come into the COTH with his boxing gloves on, though...


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #186
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    Jan. 18, 2002
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    canada
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    Well considering the crap that got spewed awhile back, from SOME of the people on Coth, about the position, i would say, its a bit of tongue and cheek humour. I dont know the man, and maybe he should have thrown in a few winks after the statement, but i dont think it was mean spirited at all. Lets face it sometimes people say things here that are nasty.
    The position is what it is, no one is forcing anyone to apply, and the whole i wouldn't do it statements, can be answered with, NO one is asking you to.
    Why would he come on to Coth and comment at all. He didn't bring it here in the first place. Someone else did ages ago, and they trotted the ad out on Coth for all to see and make comment. Lets face it the guy is no slouch, and i would think that being able to train with him at reduced rates would be a great opportunity. I know a few Olympic level show jumpers, I also know how much it cost to train with them. As far as I am concerned who ever takes the position is getting a pretty good deal. Whether you would or would not take the position is a mute point, and ads like Mr Martins are not there for the general "you"s of the world.
    Its a good opportunity for a young rider, that has the backing of their parents, and wants to maybe try making a career in eventing. Its a tough go and its expensive to make it to the top, so at least this position gives someone the chance to see what it is really all about. You don't get to the top by sitting on your butt looking at pretty horses. Its hard work, it takes dedication, and a passion that not many people really have. I know, i do the hiring for our barn, I hear all the "its my passion" crap, and well it just ends up being Lip service. Maybe if some of these kids have to pay, they might be a little more motivated to put the time in. Call me a little slanted, but I have never in my life run across so many kids that think they are entitled to start at the top and have the best, all the while, sitting in a chair, playing on their i-phones, and basically doing nothing.
    As a parent the PAID so my kid could ride, I would have more than appreciated the help from just such a position as this.
    www.tayvalleyfarm.com
    My other home.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #187
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    Aug. 4, 2009
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    MD
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    I am going to tread very carefully thru the mine field.... I was a working student...meaning I worked for my lessons, riding and life. but I had parents who fed me and I got all my showing clinic fees lessons covered with the WS position. My show clothes were either birthday xmass of babysitting monies. There were no days off and I had no horse of my own so no board compensation..... And the exposure to some of the icons and founding fathers of eventing was priceless. Virtual whose who was always walking a course having a cold one or schooling XCODE under my nose. this was priceless.
    Fast forward 40 years....I would not even begin to comprehend a WS position that did not offer some form of living accommodations and at least turn out board for 1 horse.
    While Boyd is offering a wonderful opportunity it is not all that unique. There are plenty of other UL or even mid level rider/ trainers who have WS programs with flexibility built in to allow you to earn money or have living accommodations
    What Boyd is offering is an immersion into the UL Pinnacle where there are major owners with big budgets international competitions. This position looks to be for someone who has saved to take a Unpaid leave from real life. I can respect his comment about COTH but his sense of humor is not always one we get. I imagine he has a non disclosure and some sort of confidentiality form well in place, since one slip of tongue at say the Whip can ruin a horses sale..;
    There is a certain mystic and romance a kind of allure that captures the imagination of Boyd and Neville. Everyone knows how hard WS in eventing work at that level. And from aN economic stand point why not have your Help pay you while working. People que up for summer intern positions in other corporate situations. Mind they don t need to shoe vet ship compete. 1200 lb free loader who eats an poops.....and then there is the school of thought if you pay for it you will appreciate it more. Kudos to the Lucky applicant who has the talent horse financial resources and work ethic to land the position. I am very confident there is no shortage of people applying..


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #188
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    Jan. 21, 2006
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    I think working student positions with top people are worth their weight in gold.

    That being said, there is nothing wrong with looking at the economics of the situation from the working student side. Assuming these are long days - say ten hours of working - at $8/hour for 6 days a week (24 days a month) - the working student is providing labor worth conservatively $1920 a month, probably more. And, that is before the working student comes out of pocket for anything.

    The question for the working student is whether they are receiving a value sufficient in exchange for their labor and their money.

    Its a reasonable question for a working student to ask --their are plenty who will answer yes and who find a way to make it work for them. On the other hand, there are also plenty that believe that they too are bringing value to the table and that that ought to be recognized as well.
    Last edited by juststartingout; Dec. 30, 2012 at 03:27 PM.



  9. #189
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    Nov. 19, 2005
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    Lost in the Sandhills of NC
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    Well, Boyd does have a wicked sense of humor. . . . But quite frankly there are an awful lot of kids who come in these days without having their acts together and with little to no sense of how to develop a work ethic. Better to be very specific about what is required. If you don't like the requirements, don't apply for the position.

    and its pedestal, not pedastool.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  10. #190
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    Feb. 22, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasusmom View Post
    and its pedestal, not pedastool.
    I like 'pedastool'. It's for those who'd like to grandstand but can only afford the IKEA version.
    Last edited by JER; Dec. 30, 2012 at 08:23 PM. Reason: duplicate word


    25 members found this post helpful.

  11. #191
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    Apr. 30, 2002
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    Unless a professional clearly spells out the full educational program someplace in writing -- you have no way of knowing, verifying, or forcing a professional to give you the education you bargained for in exchange for your work. You just have to hope he or she is honest. We can do the math all we want but the fact is, only someone in the situation themselves is going to know if it is worth it for them, or not. How do you know if you would want to go to someone's barn and work for them? You don't. You have to spend some time there to know if it is right for you or not. Hell, I've been in some barns where the BNT was only there maybe one day a week during the competition season. How do three to six working students each get a weekly private lesson if the pro is only there one or two days a week? They don't. Not even close.

    Today I think some of these so-called WS programs are a nightmare for a young girl. I've heard some terrible horror stories at these big barns -- long long days, no meals, no money for food, horrendous living conditions, no riding, and verbal abuse. If I had a kid today, who wanted to go off and be a working student, I wouldn't let them. Rather I'd try to find them a PAYING entry level job with someone, maybe not a BNT, but someone I trusted as a knowledgeable horseman. There's a lot of those around who don't necessarily dance around the pinnacle of the sport, but are truly wonderful horsemen and women nonetheless.
    Or better yet, I'd just send them to COLLEGE.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com


    12 members found this post helpful.

  12. #192
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    Mar. 17, 2003
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    North Texas, US
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    Perhaps part of the issue is that WS is used to cover a wide range of jobs. Some that I've seen are really "barn worker" or "assist. barn manager" type positions and typically pay *something*.

    Others are more like opportunities for students to work off the cost of training with trainer. I did this when I was a pre-teen...cleaned 15 stalls 3x/week for 2 lessons because my parents wouldn't pay for lessons.

    Years later, I wanted to be a "working student" for Mike Huber (back in the early 90s). There was a bit of pay and living accommodations, but there's no way I could have paid for my car insurance, food, and other "life" expenses without having another job at the same time.

    I think that Boyd's position is a bit of both. Sounds like he wants someone to come and basically "apply on the job" and cover their own expenses during this probationary period. Then, if they work out and are doing a good job, they are put into a paying job. May still need some parental or savings account help to pay for showing and stuff.

    I guess the other way to look at this is what would it cost to go to Aiken for 3 months, board and train in his barn, rent an apartment, etc. without the ability to defer any of the costs by "working"? I have a feeling if you put the pencil to paper (or fingers to calculator) this position wouldn't look so bad!!

    In any event, I'm jealous of whomever gets to take advantage of this opportunity, I would have killed to do something like that in my 20s. Oh well.
    www.debracysporthorses.com
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    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #193
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    Oct. 2, 1999
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    Mendocino County, CA: Turkey Vulture HQ
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    In all seriousness, there are some fairly strict rules about people working unpaid and there has been more enforcement as of late. Sure, it sounds nice to have your help pay you to audition for a paying job... but that doesn't make it a legal practice.

    Here are the guidelines from the Department of Labor: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/complian...m#.UODFqEKBAeU

    The Test For Unpaid Interns
    There are some circumstances under which individuals who participate in “for-profit” private sector internships or training programs may do so without compensation. The Supreme Court has held that the term "suffer or permit to work" cannot be interpreted so as to make a person whose work serves only his or her own interest an employee of another who provides aid or instruction. This may apply to interns who receive training for their own educational benefit if the training meets certain criteria. The determination of whether an internship or training program meets this exclusion depends upon all of the facts and circumstances of each such program.
    The following six criteria must be applied when making this determination:

    1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;
    2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
    3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
    4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
    5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and
    6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.

    If all of the factors listed above are met, an employment relationship does not exist under the FLSA, and the Act’s minimum wage and overtime provisions do not apply to the intern. This exclusion from the definition of employment is necessarily quite narrow because the FLSA’s definition of “employ” is very broad. Some of the most commonly discussed factors for “for-profit” private sector internship programs are considered below.
    Note especially items 3 & 4.

    Otherwise,

    Interns in the “for-profit” private sector who qualify as employees rather than trainees typically must be paid at least the minimum wage and overtime compensation for hours worked over forty in a workweek.*
    and:

    Further, unpaid internships generally should not be used by the employer as a trial period for individuals seeking employment at the conclusion of the internship period.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


    6 members found this post helpful.

  14. #194
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    Aug. 4, 2009
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    MD
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    I think we discussed this before..but anyway...

    Someone could make a few bucks by offering a well planned course on
    How to talk to investors
    How to package yourself to attract investors
    How to apply for grants from qualifications to press ration
    How to talk to media
    How to get media time I.e. print TV Cyber
    Where to look for Free stuff
    Commercial sponsors
    Beta testing equipment
    Building website
    Finding your strength and a niche to fill in a very full competitive market.
    Advertising
    Dress the part...like realestate only not location but presentation presentation Reputation

    Sort of like Corporate Boot Camp


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #195
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2010
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    Area 1, Connecticut
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    I am in a position where I am a senior in high school and am looking into working student positions. Depending on the position I'll either go before or after college. My goal is to have my own training/teaching business and compete at the upper levels. That being said, that post completely turned me off.

    Whether it was tongue in cheek or not I found it very unprofessional, mostly because not everyone knows about COTH or this thread from the last WS position. If you didn't know what he was talking about it would seem as if he was being snarky and discriminatory. He probably was kidding, but its just not the place to do it.

    The problem I have with that type of working student position is the money involved. Upper level eventing is way too focused on who has the money instead of who has the talent. I don't have that kind of money, but does that mean I have any less potential to be successful at the highest level? The way I see it, if you can't afford to buy an upper level horse and take lessons from a BNT, a working student position is a great, semi-affordable opportunity to surround yourself with experienced horsemen, learn a ton, immerse yourself in that environment, and get yourself noticed. If I had the kind of money to be a working student for Boyd, I wouldn't be a working student for Boyd. I would have my own top level horse and take lessons from someone like Boyd.

    I'm looking into working student positions as a rung in my ladder to the top because I can't buy my way there. Would working for Boyd be an amazing, unparalleled experience that I would love to do? Absolutely. But I can't afford it. It'd be nice if he was more willing to take on the people with talent and drive who weren't filthy rich.
    Blog: http://movingonupeventing.blogspot.com/

    Don't believe the hype.


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  16. #196
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    Jan. 6, 2008
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    Area II, the Blue Ridge Mountains
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    The real world: some people have more money than others. So others have to work harder to make up for that. It is very simple. Life is not fair.

    It's the way it has been, is, and always will be.

    If you cannot afford to be a WS for Boyd, through parents or loans, then go be a WS somewhere else that is less expensive.

    Some kids have parents send them to top knotch private colleges for $70k per year. Others go to community colleges and borrow to get their education.

    And I know this sounds quite discriminatory, but over the years, I have seen a marked decline in the work ethic of our young people. I have hired NUMEROUS 20-something want-to-event people and paid them well. Only one was truly willing to work. I had to come up with all sorts of rules, such as "No cellphones allowed" (texting in the back of a stall or in the shadow of the tackroom was the most common offense). I've had employees refuse to do jobs that I do myself (climb up into the hayloft, pick up rocks in a paddock). I've had to review (over and over) how to properly curry a horse (too much work...).

    I've heard the same from others. It is very difficult to find people who are motivated and eager to work hard and learn. I am sure they are out there, and the BNR I know who have such WS or employees hang onto them for as long as they can.

    My trainer has WSs sometimes last less than two days. And they don't muck stalls. She has employed workers who do that.... But they are expected to work as hard and as long as she does, six days per week. And when a WS does show the fortitude and determination to work and learn, they graduate to a paid position.

    I don't blame Boyd for charging money. He does, because he can.

    Get over it.


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  17. #197
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    Apr. 17, 2002
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    between the barn and the pond
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    1. I would never dream of gossiping about my employer here or ANYwhere. Some folks lack discretion, hence the warning.
    2. One does not HAVE to take a horse, I wouldn't think. One could apply and say, I'll work like a dog to learn, but I can't afford to bring my own. Period. If you have the record and the recommendations to carry you, you're in, no?

    I knocked off a whopping 25 bucks a month off my horse's board through my teenage years, by doing anything I was asked at the little barn where I boarded. That meant I rode just about everything that came through there, and went everywhere with them...I learned a TON, I just 'know' stuff about the variability of horses I could not have known had I not thrown myself into it.

    No one on COTH HAS to apply. Neville won't miss you if you don't.


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  18. #198
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    Jan. 6, 2008
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    Area II, the Blue Ridge Mountains
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    Is this implying that those with WS's are breaking the law? One must figure in the bartering of lessons, auditing, and instruction throughout the day. My experience, watching WSs, is that they often ride or at least warm up horses during the day and receive ongoing instruction from the BNR or Assistant trainer. And they receive multiple lessons per week.

    I do know of one barn where WS's spend much of the day mucking, cleaning, etc. They also receive a lesson every day on their own horse as well as housing and board. But they work hard and get one day off per week, which is the norm for professionals in our field.



    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    In all seriousness, there are some fairly strict rules about people working unpaid and there has been more enforcement as of late. Sure, it sounds nice to have your help pay you to audition for a paying job... but that doesn't make it a legal practice.

    Here are the guidelines from the Department of Labor: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/complian...m#.UODFqEKBAeU



    Note especially items 3 & 4.

    Otherwise,



    and:



  19. #199
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    Feb. 22, 2000
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    I'd like to know who posted as me in the comments at Boyd's blog.

    The post was in reply to KellyS's comment, and said 'Kelly, you are an idiot. JER'

    I didn't -- would never -- write that. Obviously, it was someone from here, possibly a bad joke, possibly just plain tasteless.

    To whoever did this, I'm not expecting a confession. Just understand that I don't like it at all, and also that I don't like seeing KellyS being the recipient of an insult. She doesn't deserve it.



  20. #200
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    Oct. 4, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    The real world: some people have more money than others. So others have to work harder to make up for that. It is very simple. Life is not fair.

    It's the way it has been, is, and always will be.

    If you cannot afford to be a WS for Boyd, through parents or loans, then go be a WS somewhere else that is less expensive.

    Some kids have parents send them to top knotch private colleges for $70k per year. Others go to community colleges and borrow to get their education.

    And I know this sounds quite discriminatory, but over the years, I have seen a marked decline in the work ethic of our young people. I have hired NUMEROUS 20-something want-to-event people and paid them well. Only one was truly willing to work. I had to come up with all sorts of rules, such as "No cellphones allowed" (texting in the back of a stall or in the shadow of the tackroom was the most common offense). I've had employees refuse to do jobs that I do myself (climb up into the hayloft, pick up rocks in a paddock). I've had to review (over and over) how to properly curry a horse (too much work...).

    I've heard the same from others. It is very difficult to find people who are motivated and eager to work hard and learn. I am sure they are out there, and the BNR I know who have such WS or employees hang onto them for as long as they can.

    My trainer has WSs sometimes last less than two days. And they don't muck stalls. She has employed workers who do that.... But they are expected to work as hard and as long as she does, six days per week. And when a WS does show the fortitude and determination to work and learn, they graduate to a paid position.

    I don't blame Boyd for charging money. He does, because he can.

    Get over it.
    This! Especially the people not wanting to work part, and wow, glad to hear we arent only ones not getting people who know how to groom!!
    May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
    www.mmceventing.com


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