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  1. #281
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    Lightbulb moment. I think the goals of different WS positions vary greatly. Those who go into WS positions with BNRs probably are going with the goal of becoming a 4* rider. Those who go into WS positions with others may be going with the goal of learning how to manage a barn,, and more. Both are with great merit. But those who seem to be criticizing Boyd don't seem to get that the WS is there to observe every intricacy of how a 4* rider makes it happen, and to ride as many different horses as possible with as much help as possible. That experience is not available through all WS programs.

    And believe me, I doubt a WS is paying 60-80 hours a week in hard physical work. And how do we know that students are a low priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by JP60 View Post
    I see your point, but not as it applies to a "Work Student" position. Learning how to manage a barn, manage horses in a medium to large setting is a pretty big task. Is that what a WS position is all about? Is a late teens, early twenties somebody able to grasp all that while taking lessons, conditioning horses, cleaning stalls/stuff, and all the other cruft jobs that are part of Barn/Equine ownership? Are we then talking about the "Hands on" vs book knowledge approach to education (again we use the term student here).

    Lets take the name Boyd out of the equation for a moment and look at this just in terms of education? If the offer came not from a BNR would the experienced gain be the same (BO seeks 'WS' to do lots of 'stuff' in exchange for learning how to manage a large operation). The applicant still gets the experience of animal/barn management (multi-tasking), but no lessons from a Big Name...The question is then, is that a WS position, or a jr manager position with little to no pay, but lots of practical experience? Would a WS for Boyd be making decisions about his horses? If so then they are coming in with a lot of experience already.

    The honey in this pot is more about the potential lessons and networking from Boyd, not barn management. Boyd is capitalizing on his Name (and he has earned that ability, no doubt) to get a deal where someone will take care of his stuff while away from his home turf in exchange for lessons from a champion which from his POV is a low effort exchange. Put it another way, the Worker pays 60- 80 hours a week in hard physical effort while Boyd pays 3 to maybe 4 hours in light "training" work a week plus some management moments. The student part is pretty low priority while the working part is huge.

    Boyd is taking advantage of the existing system, but it does not mean it is a good system (no measurable results). In the past Boyd Martin struck me as a decent fellow with a sense of fair play so I'd give him the benefit that any person who takes on this role will gain knowledge from the time...but not everyone is Boyd, and that's what concerns me.


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  2. #282
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    I think it's supply and demand.

    BNTs are able to "charge more" (or offer less financially rewarding) positions, because more people want to work with BNTs and will pay for that learning. Boyd himself seems to have some extra mystique even for a BNT that makes him incredibly hot right now, both as a rider and a business person. He doesn't need 1000 people to apply, just one that is a fit.

    That said, it doesn't mean his program is the right fit for everyone, or that many WS couldn't get as much out of other programs. Sort of like college, it is what you make of it, the value proposition is different for every person, and you can learn a ton at community college or almost nothing at an $$ private school.

    If it's not for you, don't apply.
    If it's not for anyone, nobody will apply and he may have to change the terms.
    But it seems like he does get applicants, so I'm not sure why the outrage?

    I did think the COTH dig was not classy, given the amount of support COTHers have provided him in the past.


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  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    Lightbulb moment. I think the goals of different WS positions vary greatly. Those who go into WS positions with BNRs probably are going with the goal of becoming a 4* rider. Those who go into WS positions with others may be going with the goal of learning how to manage a barn,, and more. Both are with great merit. But those who seem to be criticizing Boyd don't seem to get that the WS is there to observe every intricacy of how a 4* rider makes it happen, and to ride as many different horses as possible with as much help as possible. That experience is not available through all WS programs.

    And believe me, I doubt a WS is paying 60-80 hours a week in hard physical work. And how do we know that students are a low priority?
    Good points. To be clear my criticism (if it is that) is not directed at Boyd Martin, but at a program/process that can have the potential for labor abuse. I doubt I will ever see the value of such a skewed labor deal, but then I'm not slated to go 4* and I already have my own barn keeping me poor and in slave labor for the joy of keeping my horses with me.

    To be a little pedantic, the original posting by Boyd stated
    The ideal candidate for must be enthusiastic about working extremely long hours, six to seven days per week. The work is hard, and consists of stall cleaning, grooming horses, tacking and untacking horses, and general barn and farm clean-up.
    Granted he also states "unlimited opportunities for learning" which does focus on the Student portion, but...unlimited opportunities is not like x number of hours a week. Maybe just a little spin there? I think what would have been great is whom ever took the position blogged about the experience (with Mr Martin's approval of course) to provide insight both to this specific job, but maybe to the WS approach in general. That whole research thing that Rayers, Deltawave and other smart folk talk about all the time.


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  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beam Me Up View Post
    I think it's supply and demand.

    BNTs are able to "charge more" (or offer less financially rewarding) positions, because more people want to work with BNTs and will pay for that learning. Boyd himself seems to have some extra mystique even for a BNT that makes him incredibly hot right now, both as a rider and a business person. He doesn't need 1000 people to apply, just one that is a fit.

    That said, it doesn't mean his program is the right fit for everyone, or that many WS couldn't get as much out of other programs. Sort of like college, it is what you make of it, the value proposition is different for every person, and you can learn a ton at community college or almost nothing at an $$ private school.

    If it's not for you, don't apply.
    If it's not for anyone, nobody will apply and he may have to change the terms.
    But it seems like he does get applicants, so I'm not sure why the outrage?

    I did think the COTH dig was not classy, given the amount of support COTHers have provided him in the past.
    Bingo! And well said.
    Barn rat for life

    The Big Horse


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  5. #285
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    Are we done now?

    I am <hearing sighs of relief>



  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    Are we done now?

    I am <hearing sighs of relief>
    But of course...I like a good discussion, but not one that turns into a negative milieu.

    This was enlightening for me as I had not been familiar with WSPs. I came to the dance late so my pardons for catching up.

    Now off to muck stalls, clean equipment, tack and untack horses all for no pay and the added benefit of no training , just the reward of getting to play with my own herd I'm my own WS and I love it!


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  7. #287
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    One thing I would add is that equine employers are not above or outside the law, and I would encourage our BNTs advertising working student or other positions to make sure that their job descriptions (even if just posted on a blog) are compliant with labor law before posting them.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  8. #288
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    I have no comment on Boyd's working student offer, but I do have concerns about the whole Working Student concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by loshad View Post
    Internships and working student positions are BOTH short term learning opportunities that may lead to a permanent position.
    As others have stated, there are some significant differences between internships and working student positions.

    The differences that I feel need to be addressed are:

    1-interships are run by colleges and the companies that apply to get interns from colleges have to follow guidlines in training/teacing the intern and are held accountable.

    2-An intern can use student loans for housing/food, whether or not the internship is paid.

    3-the company sees no money from the internship.

    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Paget wasn't mucking stalls but he was there to learn more about the Jungs' riding and training system. For three weeks. It sounds like he gathered a lot of information to incorporate into his own routine.
    He wasn't mucking stalls. Mucking stalls and hot walking horses are not going to teach you how to train or manage a training/boarding facility. Working under the manager will. Following the trainer closely will.

    I will give an anecdote for the 'learn through osmosis of being there' type argument. If I am walking a horse at my trainer's and the vet comes to look at a horse, I cannot just stop what I am doing to listen to the trainer and vet talk. I need to keep walking the horse. I can ask questions later, but I am not there to see the flexion test, poke at the wound, etc. I come up with different questions when the vet and horse are infront of me than when I am doing something else. Neither am I able to watch her teach a lesson or plan the day, etc.

    For me, it is very much about ROI. I went back to school as an adult and have a degree I can show people. Now, some degrees are looked on more highly, by the general population, than others, but a degree still looks better than no degree. A working student position does not come with that. It *may* have a small influence in some circles, but from what I have seen, not enough.

    My trainer was a working student for a few Olympic and Grand Prix riders. She also gallops race horses. She has made more business contacts galloping, and gets far more from galloping, than she got from being a working student. She learned a lot, both about riding/training and management - but the ROI of contacts is not there. She did not graduate with a degree and GPA, she just has to rely on the person she worked for to vouch for her. Not al working student positions offer the learning opportunities she had and there is no way to differentiate without going back to the source.

    Personally, I get a much better ROI working with her than I do working as a working student, but, I am not looking to be an upper level rider. Mostly I am gleaning information for my hopeful future backyard farm and working off my lessons.

    For my niece, if she was looking to be a working student, especially with the business mind my brother has, I know he will be looking at ROI and most working student positions I see posted would not pass his litmus test.



  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajierene View Post
    As others have stated, there are some significant differences between internships and working student positions.

    The differences that I feel need to be addressed are:

    1-interships are run by colleges and the companies that apply to get interns from colleges have to follow guidlines in training/teacing the intern and are held accountable.

    2-An intern can use student loans for housing/food, whether or not the internship is paid.

    3-the company sees no money from the internship.
    I think you're confusing student co-op with internships. Yes, for co-op work, it's tied to college credit. However, there are a TON of internships--paid and unpaid--whose only purpose is to get someone work experience, networking, and hopefully a foot in the door.
    ---------------------------


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  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildBlue View Post
    I think you're confusing student co-op with internships. Yes, for co-op work, it's tied to college credit. However, there are a TON of internships--paid and unpaid--whose only purpose is to get someone work experience, networking, and hopefully a foot in the door.
    Maybe it is just my internship experiences, then. They have always been run by a college.



  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildBlue View Post
    I think you're confusing student co-op with internships. Yes, for co-op work, it's tied to college credit. However, there are a TON of internships--paid and unpaid--whose only purpose is to get someone work experience, networking, and hopefully a foot in the door.
    Nope ...not confused... Most corporate internships are tied to education ... They may not be for credit, but they are designed to complement an educational experience giving real world applications to material going on in the classroom. Some are for credit, some are summer positions for resume building.

    There are unrelated internships but they are less frequent in my experience.

    A number of co-op programs such as Northeaster University - one of the largest and most established programs - actually pay students an hourly rate during their co-op job.



  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by juststartingout View Post
    Nope ...not confused... Most corporate internships are tied to education ... They may not be for credit, but they are designed to complement an educational experience giving real world applications to material going on in the classroom. Some are for credit, some are summer positions for resume building.

    There are unrelated internships but they are less frequent in my experience.
    My experience is similar to WildBlue's. Very few of the internships I knew of in college (with the exception of the summer in Washington program) were in any way related to the university. That may vary from institution to institution, though. I don't know of law school internships related to unis, either, except in that the firms will sometimes have job fairs there.

    Most internships in the DC area (including, but not limited to those with the federal government and big think tanks) are not affiliated with universities.

    All of my interns came to me independently. I generally knew what their majors were, but didn't focus any of the internships on supplementing in class learning.
    According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.


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  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajierene View Post
    I have no comment on Boyd's working student offer, but I do have concerns about the whole Working Student concept.
    ...
    For my niece, if she was looking to be a working student, especially with the business mind my brother has, I know he will be looking at ROI and most working student positions I see posted would not pass his litmus test.
    This...Well said. Thank you!



  14. #294
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    If it is not something you agree with.....do not apply.
    If it is something you would consider doing but cannot afford it....there are other WS positions you could apply for.
    If this is Boyd's business model, and it works for him.....good for him.
    If this position is of interest to you and you can make it work....good for you.

    Not all positions/jobs are suited for everyone. Such is life. In the end, business should be a win/win for everyone concerned. If it works for The Martins and it works for the candidates then I fail to see the problem.


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  15. #295
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    This is all perfectly true and reasonable. Still, I’m glad to see so much discussion on this thread, most of it having nothing to do with the Martins per se. The ws posting attracted controversy because it seems to be winning the race to the bottom, the bottom being the least amount of compensation you can offer and still get a young woman work long, hard hours doing manual labor in your barn. I’m glad that at least some people see this as problematic and undesirable. But clearly other posters think Boyd’s terms are just fine, and presumably someone with this opinion will take the job.


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  16. #296
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    I'll just say that in almost 8 years in two different midwestern college engineering programs, including a stint as a grad admin in the engineering office, I've seen a lot of both co-ops and internships (and work-study, which counts as financial aid through the college). And I, personally, never had any engineering work experience--position title 'intern'--count toward or have anything to do with my college credit.

    Count me as someone who is far from appalled by the amount of work required for what you get. But, then, in my early 20's I worked an equine job where I was in the barn at 4:30 every morning and worked until 6 or 7, or sometimes 9 if a load of hay needed unloaded, in the evening for what worked out to be about $1/hr plus room, board, and the experience--which was a heck of a lot less than even an LNT barn. It was a nice break from working two jobs and putting myself through school...

    ETA: The big reason I'm okay with asking a WS to, well, WORK is that it doesn't exactly get easier from there. Does anyone honestly believe the BNT gets to sit around and direct minions and ride pretty horsies? Heck no--he or she is going to have just as long--or longer--of a day than any WS. It takes a heck of a lot of daily effort to run a profitable horse program and if someone farther down the ladder doesn't do his or her job, someone else has to step in. That means, conceivably, the BNT or senior staff cleaning stalls at 10 p.m. before starting on their office work because it has to be done. Period. Yeah, a WS position is a lot of work, but that's just fair warning for what the job will continue to be like!
    Last edited by WildBlue; Jan. 3, 2013 at 08:47 AM.
    ---------------------------


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  17. #297
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    My first job was on a Connecticut dairy farm at 13 years old. Long, hard, rewarding work and I made $2 a day.

    It didn't kill me. It built a work ethic.

    Snoopy, well said.
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/



  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildBlue View Post
    I'll just say that in almost 8 years in two different midwestern college engineering programs, including a stint as a grad admin in the engineering office, I've seen a lot of both co-ops and internships (and work-study, which counts as financial aid through the college). And I, personally, never had any engineering work experience--position title 'intern'--count toward or have anything to do with my college credit.

    Count me as someone who is far from appalled by the amount of work required for what you get. But, then, in my early 20's I worked an equine job where I was in the barn at 4:30 every morning and worked until 6 or 7, or sometimes 9 if a load of hay needed unloaded, in the evening for what worked out to be about $1/hr plus room, board, and the experience--which was a heck of a lot less than even an LNT barn. It was a nice break from working two jobs and putting myself through school...

    ETA: The big reason I'm okay with asking a WS to, well, WORK is that it doesn't exactly get easier from there. Does anyone honestly believe the BNT gets to sit around and direct minions and ride pretty horsies? Heck no--he or she is going to have just as long--or longer--of a day than any WS. It takes a heck of a lot of daily effort to run a profitable horse program and if someone farther down the ladder doesn't do his or her job, someone else has to step in. That means, conceivably, the BNT or senior staff cleaning stalls at 10 p.m. before starting on their office work because it has to be done. Period. Yeah, a WS position is a lot of work, but that's just fair warning for what the job will continue to be like!
    its ok to have different experiences -- having taught at a undergraduate and graduate level for more than 15 years -- my experience is that internships relate (NOT sponsored by the University and not necessarily for credit) to an educational goal and to building real world experience.

    for the record - virtually none of the comments here have been aimed at Boyd -- in fact it has been a general discussion of the working student proposition

    also there seems to be some underlying assumption that those who are concerned about working student positions have some objection either to the long hours or to hard work. At least in my case neither is a problem -- for the first ten years of my career, 10 plus hour days were the norm and oftentimes longer and most times there were no days off or they were only occasional.

    Bring on the hard work - bring on the long hours - NO problems there. The question has been and remains is there enough value and learning to justify those long hours - the ROI. And that depends on the terms of the particular WS arrangement involved. Some simple numbers tell us that if a WS is doing barn work for 10 hours a day for 25 days a month at 8 dollars an hour - that labor is worth $2,000 a month. If the retail/market value of a stall is $1,000 and the working student receives 2 lessons a week for 4 weeks a month at 100 per lesson that is worth at retail/market $1,800. Virtually the same value given and received by each party thus far.

    NOW we can start to factor in other issues -- does the WS receive housing, does the WS get to ride other horses, is the WS included in vet consultations, does the WS learn about horse selection and conditioning and so on..... Obviously there are cases where the working student receives an education over and above the value they bring to the table and there is nothing wrong with asking that the WS pay for that value.

    A good WS position is a way up the ladder - a way to learn how to run a barnm condition and maintain horses, manage clients and one's own riding agenda -- In many many ways it is an experience that cannot be duplicated. But it needs to be a good position designed to benefit both parties --


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  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    If it is not something you agree with.....do not apply.
    If it is something you would consider doing but cannot afford it....there are other WS positions you could apply for.
    If this is Boyd's business model, and it works for him.....good for him.
    If this position is of interest to you and you can make it work....good for you.

    Not all positions/jobs are suited for everyone. Such is life. In the end, business should be a win/win for everyone concerned. If it works for The Martins and it works for the candidates then I fail to see the problem.


    I will go further by saying we could take Boyd and his position out of the equation and I could be talking about any transaction.
    The very fact is that when two parties come together BOTH should feel that are getting what they want from the transaction.
    It is all about perception.....what one person feels is value for money another person may feel hard done by.
    A successful transaction of goods and or services is all dependent on both parties being happy with the exchange.

    All successful transactions are those when the seller is happy with the selling price and the buyer is happy to pay the seller that price in what ever form of "currency" is required.


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  20. #300
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    This conversation is very similar to the triathlon ones that Ironman charges too much for their races and it is not fair. Although most of their full distance races fill within an hour of opening. Can some people not do it? Yes. Are there others who can and enjoy a well run albeit expensive race? Yes. Do people boycott the races? Yes. Does anyone really care? No.

    There are a ton of threads on how to make this sport legitimate and a decent business opportunity - I think Boyd has earned the right to charge what the market will bear for his services like any business should. There are grants out there for training that could help offset the cost if someone qualified. If we want our sport to grow we need to let those at the top make a business and a living out of it. It's not easy from any standpoint.



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