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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    I'd like to know who posted as me in the comments at Boyd's blog.

    The post was in reply to KellyS's comment, and said 'Kelly, you are an idiot. JER'

    I didn't -- would never -- write that. Obviously, it was someone from here, possibly a bad joke, possibly just plain tasteless.

    To whoever did this, I'm not expecting a confession. Just understand that I don't like it at all, and also that I don't like seeing KellyS being the recipient of an insult. She doesn't deserve it.

    LOL has it ever occured to you that your initials are not unique? That someone somewhere, is another JER??? roflmJERo...or that someone is totally pulling your leg?


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  2. #202
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    wow...11 pages....really didn't think this topic was quite worth 11 pages...but damn...here I am posting again and adding more .

    I can't vouch about other WS positions but I do know that there are a LOT of worse places you can work than at Boyd and Silva's. They are not mean people....and do appreciate hard workers...they want people who work as hard as they do. Shocker....working in the horse world is hard work with some pretty stinky jobs (in more than one way). Riding is only a small part of a successful horse business....yet that seems to be all younger works want to do or focus on. I totally understand why they would charge costs for a WS to be there. The costs are less than you would pay to have a horse in training there. It also protects them.....finding good hard workers is tough in all areas.....in all careers. More do not work out than do. This is just one screening process....there are others that I'm sure they also use when finding help.

    If you are aiming to make a career in horses...then working for people like these is how you learn about their program. From grooming, feeding, conditioning and riding. My view is that there is more than one way to make it in the horse world....if you work for someone like Boyd, you learn their system. Then take that knowledge and improve on it. Take what will work for you...and note what will not.

    If you can't afford a WS gig....and I was one who NEVER could...there are other ways to learn. You work as a groom or barn help or what ever you can...keep your eyes and ears open and prove you are a hard worker. You jump at every opportunity that presents itself. I learned as much grooming for free for an adult ammy (who happen to ride at the 3* level while working full time--including working in the barn on the weekends to lower her board), hacking out Fox hunters and polo ponies as I did working for a BNT. And guess what jobs came first

    Doors do open for those who put themselves out there and work hard.....but most are not going to just throw open those doors to a total stranger because they are screaming how worthy they are or what hard workers they are...
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Dec. 30, 2012 at 11:15 PM. Reason: typo
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    wow...11 pages....really didn't think this topic was quite worth 11 pages...but damn...here I am posting again and adding more .

    I can't vouch about other WS positions but I do know that there are a LOT of worst places you can work than at Boyd and Silva's. They are not mean people....and do appreciate hard workers...they want people who work as hard as they do. Shocker....working in the horse world is hard work with some pretty stinky jobs (in more than one way)....and riding is only a small part of a successful horse business. I totally understand why they would charge costs for a WS to be there. The costs are less than you would pay to have a horse in training there. It also protects them.....finding good hard workers is tough in all areas.....in all careers. More do not work out than do. This is just one screening process....there are others that I'm sure they also use when finding help.

    If you are aiming to make a career in horses...then working for people like these is how you learn about their program. From grooming, feeding, conditioning and riding. My view is that there is more than one way to make it in the horse world....if you work for someone like Boyd, you learn their system. Then take that knowledge and improve on it. Take what will work for you...and note what will not.

    If you can't afford a WS gig....and I was one who NEVER could...there are other ways to learn. You work as a groom or barn help or what ever you can...keep your eyes and ears open and prove you are a hard worker. You jump at every opportunity that presents itself. I learned as much grooming for free for an adult ammy (who happen to ride up to the 3* level), hacking out Fox hunters and polo ponies as I did working for a BNT. And guess what jobs came first

    Doors do open for those who put themselves out there and work hard.....but most are not going to just throw open those doors to a total stranger because they are screaming how worthy they are or what hard workers they are....in the horse work...
    I agree with almost everything you have said ... And a WS position with Boyd and Silva is likely to open other doors.

    OTOH ... WS, especially those with some substantial experience as grooms, etc and willing to work both hard and long hours are not without value. I assume without the working student, they would have to hire and pay someone to do the work. To that extent, the trainer ought to be willing to recognize the value the WSbbrings to the table. Based on my earlier conservative estimates that is just shy of $2000 a month. To the extent the WS is receiving value above that amount, no question they should pay



  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by juststartingout View Post
    I agree with almost everything you have said ... And a WS position with Boyd and Silva is likely to open other doors.

    OTOH ... WS, especially those with some substantial experience as grooms, etc and willing to work both hard and long hours are not without value. I assume without the working student, they would have to hire and pay someone to do the work. To that extent, the trainer ought to be willing to recognize the value the WSbbrings to the table. Based on my earlier conservative estimates that is just shy of $2000 a month. To the extent the WS is receiving value above that amount, no question they should pay

    From my experience....most WS do not bring that kind of value to the table...nor do they work that hard. The ones that do...move pretty quickly into a paying position.

    In all careers...you have to prove you have value, and do a lot of jobs you do not want to do. And a lot of people who think they are working hard..or bringing a lot of value to the table...rarely are.


    ETA: And those crap jobs....you often still have to do even after you have proven yourself. You muck a stall...not because you want to but because it needs to be done...even if you are top rider.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    ETA: And those crap jobs....you often still have to do even after you have proven yourself. You muck a stall...not because you want to but because it needs to be done...even if you are top rider.
    Yep! I know a rider who placed in the top 5 at Rolex and spent the following summer, galloping racehorses, mucking out barns, and driving from barn to barn giving lessons and starting/training young horses. Our sport is an exceedingly difficult one for those wanting to make a living. So if a WS really wants to make a go of it, he or she better be willing to sacrifice a lot, work insanely, and have huge ambitions. I do know of one rising pro who came over here with nothing, and has worked her a$$ off with cheap horses, making them competitive, and is now making a living. Works every day, 12 hours a day, and is non-stop. And she had been through more than one demanding WS position when she went out on her own.

    This sport takes tremendous gumption. If anyone thinks they can make it riding one horse an taking weekly lessons? Forget it. You really must take every opportunity to get stronger, better, tougher, and wiser... with no distractions. WS positions should be tough. If one can do the work and ride anything put in front of them, then maybe they have a slim chance of making a living in this sport. I swear, for every one who makes it, at least 10 end up quiting and doing something else.

    JMHO...


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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFCeventer View Post
    The problem I have with that type of working student position is the money involved. Upper level eventing is way too focused on who has the money instead of who has the talent. I don't have that kind of money, but does that mean I have any less potential to be successful at the highest level? The way I see it, if you can't afford to buy an upper level horse and take lessons from a BNT, a working student position is a great, semi-affordable opportunity to surround yourself with experienced horsemen, learn a ton, immerse yourself in that environment, and get yourself noticed. If I had the kind of money to be a working student for Boyd, I wouldn't be a working student for Boyd. I would have my own top level horse and take lessons from someone like Boyd.

    I'm looking into working student positions as a rung in my ladder to the top because I can't buy my way there. Would working for Boyd be an amazing, unparalleled experience that I would love to do? Absolutely. But I can't afford it. It'd be nice if he was more willing to take on the people with talent and drive who weren't filthy rich.
    Two things: 1- He works with lots of students who aren't filthy rich. And 2- he's not running a charity.
    If you can't afford what he has to offer then find someone else to work with. Since when has the horse world been an even playing field (or any facet of life, for that matter)? The people with talent and drive that are going to get somewhere probably aren't going to be the ones with the bitter, "life's not fair!" mentality. Yeah, it sucks, I know! Most of us have been where you are... and the ones that got somewhere weren't whining about the no-talent rich kids who got to the top, they were busy making their $500 of the track horses into top horses.


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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    I'd like to know who posted as me in the comments at Boyd's blog.

    The post was in reply to KellyS's comment, and said 'Kelly, you are an idiot. JER'

    I didn't -- would never -- write that. Obviously, it was someone from here, possibly a bad joke, possibly just plain tasteless.

    To whoever did this, I'm not expecting a confession. Just understand that I don't like it at all, and also that I don't like seeing KellyS being the recipient of an insult. She doesn't deserve it.
    Thanks for clarifying JER! I respect you a lot and would have been surprised to see that comment on Boyd's blog as it's not your style! You're too classy for that.

    I really don't care how Boyd wants to run his WS program. The comment about COTH, however, insulted an entire group of people, many of whom could be potential sponsors and supporters. Boyd may have a "wicked sense of humor" but, if I were considering working for him, buying a horse for him, or even just taking lessons, I'd choose a professional with a little more tact and better business sense.

    But as a business person, that's just the way I look at things! And I had to laugh at the "stupid" comment--very, umm, creative comeback LOL!
    Kelly Soldavin Harvest Moon Farm
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  8. #208
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    Yay for Boyd for clarifying things on his blog. I'm glad I was wrong.

    To the poster on there who said " considering that the people of COTH are able to talk freely about anything but the subjects aren't allowed to defend themselves" that's damn sure BS. This is a free forum. ANY "subject" is allowed to sign up and defend themselves if need be. Apparently some of them don't feel the need.
    "Everyone will start to cheer, when you put on your sailin shoes"-Lowell George

    What's the status on Tuco?



  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toadie's mom View Post
    Yay for Boyd for clarifying things on his blog. I'm glad I was wrong.

    To the poster on there who said " considering that the people of COTH are able to talk freely about anything but the subjects aren't allowed to defend themselves" that's damn sure BS. This is a free forum. ANY "subject" is allowed to sign up and defend themselves if need be. Apparently some of them don't feel the need.
    No offense Toadie, but that's BS. No good ever comes of anyone coming on here to defend themselves, much less a BNR. I love this board because I enjoy the chatter most of the time and i do learn things, but we are a lot like piranhas after a cow has fallen in the river. With a much faster consumption rate. I'm guilty of it, some of my favorite posters are guilty of it. Other posters often appear willfully obtuse, like in this thread. If you're always looking for something to take offense at, you're going to find it.
    This board has effectively silenced a lot of dialogue between upper level riders and membership as a whole because of the mob mentality.


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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    LOL has it ever occured to you that your initials are not unique? That someone somewhere, is another JER??? roflmJERo...or that someone is totally pulling your leg?
    Totally pulling my leg is one thing. That could be funny. But insulting KellyS and hurting her feelings by posing as me? That isn't funny at all.

    And no, I don't think it's a case of someone with the same initials. That's just not credible under the circumstances.


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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSjumper View Post
    Two things: 1- He works with lots of students who aren't filthy rich. And 2- he's not running a charity.
    If you can't afford what he has to offer then find someone else to work with. Since when has the horse world been an even playing field (or any facet of life, for that matter)? The people with talent and drive that are going to get somewhere probably aren't going to be the ones with the bitter, "life's not fair!" mentality. Yeah, it sucks, I know! Most of us have been where you are... and the ones that got somewhere weren't whining about the no-talent rich kids who got to the top, they were busy making their $500 of the track horses into top horses.
    I'm sorry you read my post and perceived me to be whining and complaining about how life isn't fair. I must've not worded it as well as I could have because I can assure you I try to be as far from whiny, spoiled teenager as I possibly can.

    So a few things:

    I suppose my post was more related to my issue of money in eventing as a whole, and I was just using Boyd's WS position as an example. I get how one may think this is a "life's not fair" post but its more of an "I'm worried about the future of eventing" post. Every year the sport becomes more and more elitist because it is growing increasingly more selective to the people with money. There is also an ever increasing trend to current high performance instead of talented up and comers (and I don't mean me, I'm at Training right now, I mean more like the people at Prelim and Intermediate). If it keeps going this way, there will be no more eventing.

    I also never said that all of the kids with money had "no talent." There are plenty of lucky kids out there who are wealthy and extremely talented. Good for them.

    I AM currently training my cheap, knew nothing, couldn't canter horse and I love every second of it.

    I love riding young and difficult horses, I actually enjoy doing barn chores, including mucking, I have experience working off my lessons and being the sole charge of fourteen horses, and even if I had all the money in the world I would still buy young babies to train myself because I think its fun and rewarding. I would also have a fancy upper level horse but ya know...

    I don't mind being a slave if I get to spend every second of it with horses, I do mind paying around $2000 per month to be a slave. I'm sure others don't mind at all, and those are the people applying. Good for them. Working student positions used to be: The trainer got labor and in exchange, the student got maybe a lesson or two a week, and a stall for their horse. If they were lucky, they got a small room for housing thrown in too. That's the way it should be, its pretty much an even exchange.

    So, my original post was expressing my opinion of I can't do it, and even if I could, I probably wouldn't. I can promise you I am probably one of the least teenager-ish teenagers out there and I am FULLY aware that life is not fair.
    Blog: http://movingonupeventing.blogspot.com/

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  12. #212
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    Some of them may decide they either don't have the time, or the comments do not warrant a response. As my mother has said, "When people are improper, rise above, and walk away."

    Quote Originally Posted by Toadie's mom View Post
    Yay for Boyd for clarifying things on his blog. I'm glad I was wrong.

    To the poster on there who said " considering that the people of COTH are able to talk freely about anything but the subjects aren't allowed to defend themselves" that's damn sure BS. This is a free forum. ANY "subject" is allowed to sign up and defend themselves if need be. Apparently some of them don't feel the need.


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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFCeventer View Post
    Working student positions used to be: The trainer got labor and in exchange, the student got maybe a lesson or two a week, and a stall for their horse. If they were lucky, they got a small room for housing thrown in too. That's the way it should be, its pretty much an even exchange.

    Some are still that way....but even 20 years ago...WS for top riders and trainers paid to be there...even in eventing. I know people who were WS in the 80s. They still had to pay the costs on their horse even back then....and most did it with support from their parents.


    This sport has always cost a lot of money. I do think the sport has changed over the years. It used to be people did a WS student stint for a year or two...then went back and got their college degree and got a job outside of the horse world. There were not riders with strings of horses and most of the people that did horses full time came from or married money. The rest, were riding even at the 3* level (there wasn't a 4* in the US) while working other jobs. Now, the you go to an event and there are dozens of riders with strings of 4+ horses.....I agree that the sport has changed, and I'm not sure I like many of the changes...but back 20 years ago, fewer people could or even tried to make a living with the horses.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  14. #214
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    There are people who come out of WS programs and do make a living, but they do not do so as UL riders. They rent barns, start horses, have lower level students, sell foxhunters, etc. I can think of a few of these who live in my area, and they do well but are not in the limelight. They've always been around, but we just don't read about them.



  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRider View Post
    No offense Toadie, but that's BS. No good ever comes of anyone coming on here to defend themselves, much less a BNR. I love this board because I enjoy the chatter most of the time and i do learn things, but we are a lot like piranhas after a cow has fallen in the river. With a much faster consumption rate. I'm guilty of it, some of my favorite posters are guilty of it. Other posters often appear willfully obtuse, like in this thread. If you're always looking for something to take offense at, you're going to find it.
    This board has effectively silenced a lot of dialogue between upper level riders and membership as a whole because of the mob mentality.
    Actually Boyd has come on here to clarify some comments he had made in his blog. IIRC, I think it helped smooth things over.
    Delaware Park Canter Volunteer
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  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by judybigredpony View Post
    I think we discussed this before..but anyway...

    Someone could make a few bucks by offering a well planned course on
    How to talk to investors
    How to package yourself to attract investors
    How to apply for grants from qualifications to press ration
    How to talk to media
    How to get media time I.e. print TV Cyber
    Where to look for Free stuff
    Commercial sponsors
    Beta testing equipment
    Building website
    Finding your strength and a niche to fill in a very full competitive market.
    Advertising
    Dress the part...like realestate only not location but presentation presentation Reputation

    Sort of like Corporate Boot Camp
    You know, in a very real way, a WS position with someone like Boyd does cover many of these bases. If offering such a course is a good suggestion--and assuming one would pay for such a course--then paying for a WS position with Boyd isn't totally unreasonable.

    Though the explanation Boyd gives in the comments in his blog is very reasonable, as well.

    And there's that point, as well--it IS, after all, a blog; he can say whatever he wants on it. It may also be the only mechanism he feels he needs to post a WS position, but it's not like it's a formal ad, in something like COTH (lol). It is a blog.
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

    Spay and neuter. Please.



  17. #217
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    Re : the 11 pages, this is an "old " thread that was started over a year ago and resurrected ...

    (One of the features of the new format of which I am not a big fan.)
    A friend told me I was delusional. I almost fell off my unicorn.



  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    From my experience....most WS do not bring that kind of value to the table...nor do they work that hard. The ones that do...move pretty quickly into a paying position.

    In all careers...you have to prove you have value, and do a lot of jobs you do not want to do. And a lot of people who think they are working hard..or bringing a lot of value to the table...rarely are.


    ETA: And those crap jobs....you often still have to do even after you have proven yourself. You muck a stall...not because you want to but because it needs to be done...even if you are top rider.
    I think you misunderstand my comments. Of course, in any profession, you have to prove yourself. Of course, there are lousy parts of every job that simply need to be done. Motivated individuals always do a good job and always go beyond the basic requirements.

    However, even mucking a stall or hot walking a horse has value. To the extent that a WS is doing something that would otherwise be paid labor, they are bringing value to the table. Some WS don't bring much beyond those basic skills. Others bring more, the ability to manage barn activities, order and maintain supplies, knowledge of basic medical treatments, etc.

    And the value in terms of the labor those WS bring ought to be recognized. So for example if all they do is muck, to, clean the barn, tack up, set up grain, etc ...and that amounts to 8 hours a day of work. Then with a day off a week at 10 an hour they have "saved" the trainer almost $2,000 a month which would otherwise need to be paid to get that work done.

    If the student receives a stall and a place to live, the value of those items will likely be close to or exceed the $2,000 of value they have provided. If the WS then gets training, lessons, extra rides, the ability to compete, then the WS will have received more value than they provide - and the trainer should be paid.

    Quite honestly, all I am saying is that the arrangement should be equitable to both parties.

    And just so I am very clear, I am NOT speaking to Boyd's position .... I have no knowledge of its exact terms.



  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEARCAT View Post
    Re : the 11 pages, this is an "old " thread that was started over a year ago and resurrected ...

    (One of the features of the new format of which I am not a big fan.)
    Aw, c'mon, at this exact moment you can look at a thread from 2010 about Boyd's helmet cover. What's not to like about that?

    (FWIW, I think the WS gig is the opportunity of a lifetime.)
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
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  20. #220
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    As an employer and small business owner, I have found that if there is not a "buy-in" or a commitment by an employee then both of you will be wasting your time. Boyd's terms do allow the more committed WS to come forward. If someone wants something badly enough, they will find a way to make it happen. I have AND I am sure Boyd, Phillip and others have hired on employees and WS who because they are breathing should be paid or given the benefits. And if there is a second breath then there must be a raise. In the real world, think of all the apprenticeships and internships that may not pay anything or very little but require a committment. These will then ladder into something bigger. Good luck Boyd and Silva in finding that diamond in the rough for your program.



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